Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

blitzkrieg80 said:

Ok, yet another idea: Delete the city Barium (Sorry citizens of Bari, but we don't like where you live =oP), but use the same pop, buildings, units for a new city: Saguntum, which can be placed on the second tile above Valentia... and hopefully it should cause Rome to go to Iberia during the Second Punic War? It would be accurate since Rome's alliance with the city did start things off... Any thoughts on this?

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If you did this, Saguntum would probably fall during the First Punic war.

It is historically accurate so I don't know what to do.

Well, my latest game with my edited version has been flowing smoothely. I'm getting up to the fall of Rome now (just entered the 4th century). I was forced to abandon my fortifications up in N. England because of frequent attacks from the booming Pictish area (I beefed them up a bit). Nothing much from Germania and Sarmatia, except some invasion around 200 AD that I easily fought off with my fortifications on the Gallic-Germanian border. Persia is still weak and doesn't pose much of a threat, mainly due to the earlier wars that completely crippled Persia. My technology (with a minimum tech rate of 12) has been keeping up with the time period almost perfectly. It's been an awesome game.

So, here's some thoughts to make the end portion of the game a little better:

- Via Ad Orientum costs a ton for having to be built in a city that will have a huge amount of corruption.

- No idea why, but it seems like once the Praetoriums go obsolete, their effects still work -- the corruption is still reduced in the city and they still cost the 5 gold per turn. Not sure what you can do about this.

- Speaking of Praetoriums, Diocese, etc., maybe make anchors on certain cities so that the Praetoriums, Diocese, etc. can only be built in certain cities? Just so they can be built in historically accurate places.

- Ecclesias: From the description from the scenario, they're churches. Are they churches for Christianity? If so, why can they be built so early, before the Roman's conversion to Christianity? From what I know, the Christians had to worship secretly down in the catacombs & etc. and often had to hide for fear of being persecuted. So why would they be allowed to build churches during that time period? Maybe instead, make them available with the "Conversion of Constantine"?

- Renovatio Diocletiani: Since these buildings represent the order that Diocletian's reforms brought back to the Roman Empire, can they also remove a large amount of slave unrest as well? Once the Custodia Urbis improvement goes obsolete with the Soldier-emperors tech, slave unrest becomes a huge factor again -- one that isn't curbed until all the slave improvements go obsolete shortly after. So, these Diocletian renovations can cut down on the amount of slave unrest that pops up as well.

- the Absolutism government doesn't really have any appeal to it that makes you want to switch to it from Imperialism since, if you've conquered most of the world by then, you won't really be at war much at all. Perhaps make the Diocletian Reforms and the Diocese require Absolutism as their government to provide some incentive to switch to the government? And then move the Christian Imperialism government to the Division of Theodosius so that people will switch to it once the Diocese & etc. go obsolete.

- to then provide incentive to switch to the Christian Imperialism government (that I have changed, will explain later), you can make all the buildings that become available for the rest of the game require Christian Imperialism: Basilica, Claustrum Speculatoris, etc. etc..

- the reason why the player will need incentive to switch to Christian Imperialism is because it's going to dramatically weaken Rome's power. The corruption will be Problematic (Communal doesn't work; it's just way too powerful for so large an Empire); support will be cut to 0/1/2 so that the player may have to cut down on their Imperial Legions and other troops and make Mercenary Legions instead (which don't require support). Maybe lower Christian Imperialism's War Weariness down to Low to provide some more incentive?

- the main reason that Germania and Sarmatia aren't accomplishing much is because they have to declare war to attack me (which, of course, they are afraid to do because of my Empire's massive size). To fix this, some changes:

- Disruptores, Equites Disruptores, and Sarmatae Cataphractii are made to have no nationality. Reduce their population costs by 1. Make sure that all the other barbarian units (Bellatores Loricati, Equites, etc.) upgrade to their appropriate type of unit (footmen to footmen, horsemen to horsemen) and allow them to be upgraded for little to no price (and make sure the barbarian tribes have a barracks-like building in all their cities that allows them to upgrade units).
- Hunni Equites Sagitarii & Incursores are made to have no nationality. Again, population costs reducedby 1.
- Equites Loricati cost 1 less pop to make, hidden nationality
- the Warmonger government, the Attila Dux small wonder, & Incursio Magna great wonder are all available with 270-371 AC tech to start the momentum of the barbarian invasions earlier

- another technology needs to be added somewhere between the Conversion of Constantine and the Division of Theodosius (if you're going to use the 12 turn min. research setting) to slow the Roman's research and keep them in the right time period.

- possibly split up Germania and the northern part of Illyria (Aquincum & Savaria; both have Marshes under them to prevent Rome or anyone else from conquering them) into more barbarian tribes so that you can be invaded by more than 2 countries? With only 2 barbarian countries in Europe, the barbarian's numbers are seriously limited, and their attacks are not very concentrated and this fairly easy to fight off. Splitting them into more tribes will (hopefully) make the barbarian invasions much more of a threat.


Will add more as I go along the time line. I plan to go almost all the way to the end this time to see if the 12-turn min. research setting works through the entire game.

By the way, I'm continually updating my .biq with some changes and other things that I may not have listed here. If you want the .biq to look through it and see my changes, I'll send it you pink. I'm not going to release it publicly since this is your scenario, tho.

Loki, good point. I'm thinking Carthage will easily roll over Saguntum during the First Punic War too, but don't know how to make it different.

Here's an idea:

In regicide mode, you could make a M-Unit with king units and a bodyguard. Examples: Caesar/Legionary, Hannibal/Elephant or Mercenary, Brennus/Gallic Swordsman, and Alexander/Hoplite.

randy, id like a copy of your biq too, it sounds like you are getting a lot done with it and id be curious to see all your changes. they seem to all make sense to me.

as far as saguntum goes... how about make the city, but only have it allied with rome at first... nah on second thought i dont like that... but maybe lol

Taking your comments for final add to the patch Great to see (aarrg!) there are so many of them

@Loki

- Praetorium: like all forbidden palace, there is city number threshold that you need to reach for the praetorium to appear on the build list.
- Pirates and all hidden nat unit must have the flag checked to be used by the AI. Don’t make deal with pirates, what were you expecting ?
- Anarchy & Civil war: let’s think about it for a future patch!


@Blitzkrieg

- Croton was named Rhegium before, now moved north as you suggested
- War in Spain? Well, yes, you should, in order to stop Barca Dux to spawn armies led by Hannibal that will go rampage in Italy! Saguntum is there already (well it’s a colony )!
- Legions are currently back to def 3 for many reasons (a def4 will require to change the whole unit lines for Rome) – again this is not final but let’s test on this basis
- Basic barb warrior pop cost reduced to 1 instead of 2 ealier
- Ballista useless: maybe you game style is more like mine Originally I made artillery pretty powerful. I never build them by horde. I keep it now as suggested by Randy (slightly boosted to bomb8), and since they are to be supported, we might tweak them up later on.
- Ok for a more generic Scythia instead of Sarmatia!
- Who said testing RFRE on Friday night was to be a geek

@Naziassbandit

- I am not very familiar with latin, have no time to check before the patch: I will follow you on this one. Changed.

@President Marcos
- Thanks to Coltrane the idea is now working fine, we used the great library effect and a remade tech tree. I will post some SS later (EDITED: it actually seems it still not work correctly )

@Asclepsius
- Thanks This mod really as sucked a part of my life these last four months and I am glad you guys like it. I have tried putting explanations for the game concepts in the pedia. But I realize it is still pretty messy and I seriously plan a real revision fo the pedia when the game is more or less finalized.
- Only the quinquiremes can lethally bombard land. Use this at your own advantage to weaken Carthage before a landing. Otherwise, yes, the AI make pretty good use of them!

@ Coltrane
- Gov comment: I am not sure I get it… I thought they were more or less clearly demarcated. Republic good for a peace civ, triumvirate rep a bit more warlike, imperialism very warlike (you are supposed to prefer them in that sequence and stick to the latest available unless going into civil war). Then Absolutism (all for war), only good if you have a well organized empire with diocese/theme/administrators or Christian Imperialism, not warlike at all but allowing you to survive with a big empire but no improvement to reduce corruption. Let me know of suggestions/shortcomings!

@Jobiwan & Coltrane
- We can make these cheaper, although I believe building a great well organized empire would then be just too easy. I am not for anchoring these to resources. The player can decide where to place his praetorium (and will have interest of course not to put them all in the same region). If we are to give them a historical position, there will be problems due to the fact, there was not just 4 prefectures/dioceses/themes… in the Republic/Empire!
- I am absolutely not familiar with regicide. Feel free to work on it using the mod. Maybe once version 1.0 is out? I am curious how this can work in the context of RFRE tough

@Showmane

Welcome to CFC!
- Revolted slaves are good yes, now you are not likely to see many of them. Only by letting the Samnites unchecked will you get problems with slaves. Now if you don’t take them seriously, they will proliferate, on that I agree. Historically, I guess Spartacus must tell you something, they were able to defeat many legions and were only beatean after a long struggle, having been trapped in the south of Italy, and by the best Roman generals of that time.
- First legio are relatively weak, and remain so in the next patch. I am considering what can be done about them (actually, I do need to do less patch and test more )
- Starting date and historicaly accurate experience: please elaborate a bit.
Thanks for your encouragements and comments

@Randy, the ever hardworking tester

- Split the barb further? No it will weaken them and slow down the game!
- They have been boosted a bit already and might actually be too strong in next version…

Ah, I am readin your later posts... see below

- Glad to hear to Predatores are back to activity
- AI with off/def flagged units is not doing great… it is too late for me to change that now again. Let’s see what happen with the patch as it is now.
- Phalanx/Hoplites pop cost already removed after having bad dreams about it last week
- Oriental trade road’s cost revised down (you will have me revise all the costs at the end )
- Min tech turn will be put to 7, since some tech are in theory supposed to be researched at that speed. Now if 12 seems to make the job done, I will take it! Sorry to say for the fine tuning, but the tech tree have been changed to accomodate King Coltrane's idea with the great library (the timers tech must be accessible to Rome, otherwise, they won't get them, so they now fit in era 1 while Rome research tech in era 2 and 3)
- Two Castrum Numidici: oups! Fixed, and got the cost of the roman Castrum Numidici reduced
- Too much free support later on: ok I have change free support once more, also hoping it can help differentiating the gov from each other. I had little time to put thoughts behind it, so I am sure it will be too low

o Republic: 10+ 1/1/1
o Trium. Rep. 5+ 1/2/2
o Imperialism 0+ 1/2/3
o Absolutism: 0+ 2/2/2
o Christ. Imp. 0+ 1/1/1
o Civil war: 0+ 1/1/1
- Desert and swamps are impassable to most for strategic reasons. These terrains are to be considered when invading a country. It gives the map another dimension I feel. Look at the maze of swamps and passable lands in Mesopotamia. For desert, clearly, it helps Carthage focusing on Rome and the sea. With passable deserts, you always had hordes of mercenaries visiting the pyramids and stacking at Suez. I am impressed Egypt is beating Parthia tough… is it thanks to Antonius’ Legions? Camelties are pretty harmless also, if the hide in the swamps, is it so bad? Now, I can make swamps passable if you think it make a difference
- Christian Persec wonder has been completely changed
- Colosseum splash: fixed
- Barium: I tried saving that poor city from being erased and you will see most of Italy has been revised. Rome should have more space to expand too!
- Ecclesia are more or less what you said, secret Christian cult, but also sometime public (between persecutions). With the revised Chirstain Persec, I really need to keep the church early in-game. Tell me what you think about the new wonder and its effects.
- Renovatio Diocletiani & Slave unrest: good idea!
- Absolutism needed for Renovatio Dio & Diocese: good idea too I would love to find a way to make absolutism more attractive besides that, but as you said with no more war to be waged…
- Split the barb: again, maybe for a future patch, but I fail to see how dividing the barb will make them stronger… Did the Disrupore/Incursore not threaten you? I understand your point of the barb being scared of big Rome. Did the barb ever complete the wonder Incursia Magna? A tought comes to me: this is all because, once again, there is no decline in Roman power:
WHY DO THESE FORBIDDEN PALACES NOT GO OBSOLETE!!!!? DAMN
Now, I will release the patch today as said, hopeful I can fix that problem before. More soon... and thanks all!

Ah, BTW, by all means Randy, send me the BIQ, I might have overlooked some of your comments. I have made a quick fix for the forbidden palace problem and it should work ok now, although some flavor has been lost .

I already thought about giving the late barb units hidden nationality but this has a major constraint: they will fight each other (i.e. Attila vs. Germanics) and little of them (especially all the way from Scythia) will actually bother Rome. This might be the way to go if the barb keep being inactive, but I suppose that if we give them enough wonders spawning normal units, the AI would ultimately declare war to Rome, but maybe not long enough to really threathen the empire, granted. Patch to be uploaded in the hour
EDIT: the server don't let me upload anything right now. It just get stuck and no result... Try again later or will PM Thunderfall

Hmmm, glad I just started my new game with the hidden nationality and many other changes yesterday! I changed my plans once I found that the barbarians had no chance of overrunning my fortifications along the Roman-German border because of their overall disunity. They'd send their units up to my forts 2-3 at a time and all I had to do was shoot them down with my masses of Sag. Auxiliari and then finish them off with Equites Alarii. Guess I'll just hold off this game and wait for your patch.

What's your e-mail address? I can send you the .biq that way. Unless, you want me to just post it here. as an attachment.

pinktilapia said:

- Too much free support later on: ok I have change free support once more, also hoping it can help differentiating the gov from each other. I had little time to put thoughts behind it, so I am sure it will be too low

o Republic: 10+ 1/1/1
o Trium. Rep. 5+ 1/2/2
o Imperialism 0+ 1/2/3
o Absolutism: 0+ 2/2/2
o Christ. Imp. 0+ 1/1/1
o Civil war: 0+ 1/1/1

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Well, actually, the problem with free support was not with the Republic, Tri. Republic, or any other governments -- just with Imperialism (which I think you left the same ). In my changed version, I decided to ignore the fact that military support will get out of control with Imperialism because I made it so Christian Imperialism may force the player to drastically cut down on their number of troops that require support.

pinktilapia said:

- Desert and swamps are impassable to most for strategic reasons. These terrains are to be considered when invading a country. It gives the map another dimension I feel. Look at the maze of swamps and passable lands in Mesopotamia. For desert, clearly, it helps Carthage focusing on Rome and the sea. With passable deserts, you always had hordes of mercenaries visiting the pyramids and stacking at Suez. I am impressed Egypt is beating Parthia tough… is it thanks to Antonius’ Legions? Camelties are pretty harmless also, if the hide in the swamps, is it so bad? Now, I can make swamps passable if you think it make a difference

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- Actually, I think most of Egypt's success against the Persians was thanks to the Camelites; hordes of them! They were mixed with quite a few Pedites and some of the legions, but I'm pretty sure it was the Camelites that were taking out most of the Persian's troops. With the ability to hide in the deserts and swamps, they're certainly not as harmless as you think.

pinktilapia said:

- Split the barb further? No it will weaken them and slow down the game!

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Alright, alright. But how about those 2 cities north of the real Illyria that weren't really a part of Illyria (AFAIK), that belong to Illyria in this scenario?

pinktilapia said:

I already thought about giving the late barb units hidden nationality but this has a major constraint: they will fight each other (i.e. Attila vs. Germanics) and little of them (especially all the way from Scythia) will actually bother Rome. This might be the way to go if the barb keep being inactive, but I suppose that if we give them enough wonders spawning normal units, the AI would ultimately declare war to Rome, but maybe not long enough to really threathen the empire, granted.

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Well, my hopes are that instead of running off to fight each other, the hidden nationality units will go after cities that can actually be captured -- Rome's cities! I made it so only some cities on the western border of Germania are capturable, with the rest in Germania and all in Sarmatia having marshes under them to prevent capture. I'm still going to try using hidden nationality in my upcoming game with all the changes, if only to see how it works out.

pinktilapia said:

- Legions are currently back to def 3 for many reasons (a def4 will require to change the whole unit lines for Rome) – again this is not final but let’s test on this basis

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Nooo! Instead of making the fairly weak Legion weaker, I changed it so the big advantage for the Hoplites Alarii is that they cost no pop. to create (like all "... Alarii" units) and have a 1 HP bonus, but require support (thus limiting their numbers so you still need to build Praesidiums to guard your cities). I also raised the cost 5 shields so that they cost the same price as Praesidiums. I just wouldn't be able to stand having early Legions with 3 defense again -- I already lose too many of my Legions when attacking cities!

OK... Randy - I've read somewhere that Illyrians later took over parts of Noricum, which could represent the Northern cities you describe, but have not double-checked it.
I may have voted for a 3 defense for Legios in the past, but am NOW a convert! =OP after testing it out... I like the 6(2)4 unit! and indeed like the NO POP. cost of the Hoplite Alarii after testing it... so far I have done very well, and just barely, because of those units! it makes sense, as Randy has pointed out, since other Hoplites don't have POP COST ( I changed that right away) and similarly other Alarii units.
I also gave an extra 100 worker strength to the Legio, and 50 extra worker strength for slaves... so Velites don't build roads (it should really be a supported unit).
I also increased my ballista to rate of fire 2 (still 5 attack) and it actually hits things! I am all for an 8 attack instead though.
If there is going to be a Saguntum (which sort of conflicts with Valentia) then Valentia should be moved a little south and east to above the pottery tile nearby... also- i had to give Saguntum 2 Praesidium, 2 Hoplites Alari and 2 Velites and Moena it didn't fall during the First Punic War.. although too easy, so a little too much defense.
By the way.. I know Northern Spain was considered Gallia Aquitania and all, but I don't think the Gaul Goods should nearby Valentia. Also - the Iberians are kind of weak, I wonder if it would be wise to have the Iberians merge to become a greater Gaulish entity stretching into Spain?
I REALLY like the new unit support suggestions... 1 per small city seems almost a necessity, but later on it shouldn't get too high since the over-support comes from the 6+ size guys... also- I think Monarchy needs to be increased... i made it 3/5/5 and it seems pretty good, but still a little weak... so maybe more though?

In the Civlopedia it states that the Mare Nostrum makes Triremes but in actuality it makes Triremes Summae. (I havn't checked this with v0.62)
Does anyone else find that massive slave uprisings seem to happen to often? Maybe I'm just unlucky.
Is it intentional that you can't clean slave uprisings from mountains? I suppose it makes some sense that you can't.
Can you make is so the Cohortes Imperiatorae aren't in the build queue considering they cost 100 pop to produce?

Quick question, has anyone been able to mimic Rome's actual accomplishments on time? I've been trying but hard as I might I always hit a snag after the first punic war and need to stop to try and get my economy on track, and then I fall seriously behind.

Soam: Yes, that change to the Mare Nostrum was made a while back. So many things have been changing with the scenario recently that I'd imagine pink is holding off on perfecting the Civilopedia until most of the changes become final. The massive slave uprisings that happen can be, for the most part, handled by a group of 8 Legios running around putting down rebellions and by making sure that you have the Custudio Urbis improvement in all cities that are going to use slave labor improvements. Slave uprisings on mountains are not clearable because no unit can enter mountains, unfortunately. As for keeping up with Rome's conquests...well, it's certainly hard, especially considering that you can't receive the vast tracts of land that Rome received through marriages and gifts from other countries, and that you don't have to just defeat an army or capture a vital city or two to completely subdue a people. It would certainly be nice if you could do something like that, tho (kind of like Regicide, except all the cities go to the civ that kills the king unit, instead of all the cities being destroyed). I don't really think it's possible to really keep up with Rome's conquests, partly due to what a mentioned above and the fact that war weariness prevents you from waging wars long enough to conquer the majority of the civs and wage war on multiple fronts. You'd think such a war-oriented peoples wouldn't dislike war so much. Myself, I've gotten close to keeping up with Rome's conquests, but always find myself playing catch-up in the later AD years. It all works out tho, as my "Golden Hordes" of Legions conquer the Med.!

blitz: Well, my idea came from this map here (http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/empire/extent/100bc-2.html), which shows the Roman's early conquest of Illyria, which does not contain the northern part of it that is part of Illyria in this scenario. The northern territory is not conquered until many years after Illyria was conquered by the Romans. Thus, I simply created a "barbarian tribes" civ and gave them those two cities, allowing them to avoid the fate of Illyria as the Roman Legions march through, at least for a while.

Patch is uploaded. Link will be posted soon. Which mean last comments are not yet in.
Based on the current version, we need to come to agreement on three main points:

1. Early Legio D3 or D4. D4 sounds good and I already agreed on it but this make Legio Consularis not that attractive, especially compared to a Legio Scipionis (which in theory should be upgraded to Legio Consularis, did anybody check if that was working fine?). Let's vote; since you guys are likely to have more actual game experience than I do. Randy, I know what your vote is for

2. Brainstorming and finalizing the governments forms, including civil war as transition governnment (which means civil war would be short), in order to better differentiate them. I think the upkeep scheme I wrote yesterday is already history and was further changed in 'final' 0.7

3. Get the barb to be stronger and more active by 250AC and then 400AC .

Otherwise, a few things:

- Illyria people did settle in this area for a while (books are at home) but certainly, germanics later on occupied the territory. I gave these 2 cities to Illyria thinking that Rome would hardly take them early on otherwise (which she did in history), if meaning a war with the (supposed to be) dreaded Germanics. I am against adding more civ: the first version of RFRE was monstruously slow (the game was freezing between turns for many minutes, it was awful and get me to loose my whole pack of alpha testers, except for the brave King Coltrane ) and I got a hard work redesigning the whole map and civ to make it acceptably fast. One 2 city tribe would be harmless and Rome would be quick to get it anyway. Maybe cut the pear in two and give the northern city to Germania and the Southern to Illyria. - Hidden Nationality and marshes could work IF the Hun units and germanic units ignore each other and go south rather than reaping each other apart in the dark forests of Germania. Maybe make them units with hidden nationality AND invisible, and let only the Romans see them?! It could work!

-Swamps: lol ok. What about a impassable swamp for all? But how come camelites win to this great Parthian horse archers?

-@Soam: Pedia is hard to keep updated. I did my best for this patch and AFAIK it should be correct now. The game is hard but I prefer too hard than too easy. As I said earlier, don't mind being a bit late, you have a couple of centuries (100 turns or so) by 0AC during which Rome did very little conquest historically. Beating Carthage is hard, extending in Orient isn't much. Gauls should be a challenge, and I hope with this version, they will be! Cohortes Imperiatorae must be in the build list, otherwise you not be able to upgrade any units (Legio Antoninis, Cohortes Praetoriae) to this level. Pollution on mountain wasn't intended - I see a way I could fix that for next patch.

Preview of the new tech tree: Rome is now only working in two era (the Rise, and, without surprise, the Fall)

pinktilapia said:

I am absolutely not familiar with regicide. Feel free to work on it using the mod. Maybe once version 1.0 is out? I am curious how this can work in the context of RFRE tough

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@Pink:

In the regicide mode, every civ starts out with "King" units. If the king(s) are killed, the Civ is destroyed.

Here is a preview of a Roman "King" unit with a bodyguard. My idea was that this unit would upgrade throughout the game, staying very powerful.

jobiwan7 said:

@Pink:

In the regicide mode, every civ starts out with "King" units. If the king(s) are killed, the Civ is destroyed.

Here is a preview of a Roman "King" unit with a bodyguard. My idea was that this unit would upgrade throughout the game, staying very powerful.

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Beautiful unit!
Even without regicide, I should find a spot for that unit in next patch! (hint: cohortes Imperatoriae?!)

But concerning 'kings', would Rome use this unit if loosing it means loosing the game? If good enough, the player would, but then again, would use a save & load routine to avoid the worst

Do you want me to remake it using the other Legion unit? (the one currently used for Cohortes Imperatoriae)

Are there any other Multi-units that you want? I have similar ones done for Egypt, Eastern Civs, and Greece.

pinktilapia said:

But concerning 'kings', would Rome use this unit if loosing it means loosing the game? If good enough, the player would, but then again, would use a save & load routine to avoid the worst

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Though you could, it would be very risky to take your "king" into battle. Normally you just make sure that no one kills him, so defend him heavily!

You mean you did that unit ! Well, I see a 'couple' of them

- An emperor and the current Cohortes Imperatoriae (to become Cohortes Imperatoriae)
- Cleopatra and a pack of Antonius' Legion! (to become Legio Antonis)
- A pack of Disruptores (that would become the incursores!)
- A pack of Pictii (remain Pictii)

It would be great Jobiwan!

pinktilapia said:

- Cleopatra and a pack of Antonius' Legion! (to become Legio Antonis)

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How many legions do you want? Two, or more?

Two+1 is good, then there would be the pictii and disruptores with three identical warriors. I assume you mean you will do them? Thanks !