Songhai secretly very OP

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Ceranai

Chieftain
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Dec 27, 2014
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So I've been playing through my first marathon huge deity game and I just feel like saying, Songhai are so amazingly powerful. Open with a couple of scouts and pray for the archer upgrade->enough money to buy all the buildings in your first city, buy a settler leaving you free to get your first wonder rapidly (i was lucky and got writing in time to get great library).

Steal workers with your scouts and you are pretty much on an even level with the AI.

Now maybe I will drop off late game (doubtful with my 3 super archers (level 10 with no terrain penalty (I've called them Alpha, Beta, Gamma)) but I just think that Songhai needs someone to give it some love. I'll be honest until I played it looked at it's bonuses with distain but the gold you are rolling in early game lets you do pretty much anything, I bought a settler for a desert city and by buying granary and water mill was able to rush petra, again got lucky and desert folklore was still free founded Islam in the holy city of Mecca :)

A bit of side by side comparison with germany and I don't really see why I would take Germany instead of Songhai, I can buy units with the gold I get from camps and the gold is more versatile, the two promotions are actually really useful because you can be more aggressive when attacking awkward positions.

I am going to claim that early game on slower speeds Songhai played to its full potential dominates, anyone wanna put forward their own favorite early game nation?
 
Ceranai said:
So I've been playing through my first marathon huge deity game and I just feel like saying, Songhai are so amazingly powerful.
Click to expand...

Their bonuses shine in slower gameplay (more time to be relevant), and on larger maps (more barbs). The reason Songhai are seen as weak is because generally speaking, people deem civs 'strong' or 'weak' based on the way that they interact with standard speed games on standard sized maps. A good example would be Polynesia. Very weak civ on pangea/continent maps, but very strong on tiny island maps.

I am going to claim that early game on slower speeds Songhai played to its full potential dominates, anyone wanna put forward their own favorite early game nation?
Click to expand...

I'd say my favorite early game nation on standard-everything games would be either the Huns, Shoshone, or Ethiopia. They all bring something so impactful to the game so early that I feel 'safe' playing with them, even on Diety.
 
Aheadatime said:
Their bonuses shine in slower gameplay (more time to be relevant), and on larger maps (more barbs). The reason Songhai are seen as weak is because generally speaking, people deem civs 'strong' or 'weak' based on the way that they interact with standard speed games on standard sized maps. A good example would be Polynesia. Very weak civ on pangea/continent maps, but very strong on tiny island maps.



I'd say my favorite early game nation on standard-everything games would be either the Huns, Shoshone, or Ethiopia. They all bring something so impactful to the game so early that I feel 'safe' playing with them, even on Diety.
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Ah fair enough. I guess I feel like if I am going to commit to a deity game I want it to feel epic as <snip>, atm I've got this crazy war vs persia who somehow have about 20 cities already, but coz I've been at war since the start of time ive got this chokepoint with my great general citadels, my level 10 archers causing absolute chaos and my spearmen forming the front wall.

On my other front I just sacked Carthage and my happyness plummeted to -8 (how the hell can i deal with this much unhappyness when I can't trade anyone lux??????)

I'm thinking I'm gonna rush compass, terra map so I'm gonna bribe a mercantile state in the new world me thinks.

Either that or I hope to god the the Holy city of mecca finishes notre dame in time (it was doing well but lost several turns when i sacked carthage)

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I actually think the barbarian camp bonuses scale the wrong way - you get less rewards on Quick speed than you do on Marathon, so playing as Songhai on Marathon would probably exploit this bug rather well.
 
Gort said:
I actually think the barbarian camp bonuses scale the wrong way - you get less rewards on Quick speed than you do on Marathon, so playing as Songhai on Marathon would probably exploit this bug rather well.
Click to expand...

Calling a feature of longer games an exploit is pretty unfair...

I assume that because all the gold costs are upped in longer game (it takes much more gold to buy things) the barbarian camp gold is the same fractional cost of buying things. In longer games you might have more barbarian camps to hunt down but that is because you have more time to do everything.

For example in longer games you get Alexander's CS bonuses for longer periods of time, would you also call that an exploit? In longer game you get to use UU longer is that also an exploit? In longer games the bonus from the Celts UA has more time to get the lead on other civs, is that also an exploit?

Some of these things may or may not need more tweaking but to call it bug exploiting is wrong, longer games just play differently.
 
Ceranai said:
Some of these things may or may not need more tweaking but to call it bug exploiting is wrong, longer games just play differently.
Click to expand...

in longer games all times are scaled proportionally with exception of unit movement and unit production
so military civs become much stronger
 
I always play on Marathon and Huge, so I don't consider this an exploit either. I do think it is a really cool ability. A few units can really fund your empire with the gold from barb camps. Plus you will be more adept at getting CS barbarian camp quests too.
 
3 early game power houses IMHO are Shoshones, Mayans and Ethiopia...
If you are a bit lucky with Shoshone you will get 2 free city groth, 2 X 20 culture and 2 techs!
Heck of a good start...

Mayans dont have to reserch Archery and can built 10% cheeaper archers, monument is super powerfull and they can get all those GP for free very early! Love it!

Same for Ethiopa... super powerfull monument, early pantheon and religion are great horsehockys! Not only that at higher levels AI found cities at an insane rate, so you are very likely to have that 20% fighting bonus for any early wars...

Also love Celts... good kickstarters out there for them too... but for great starts, they are in my 2nd tier slightly behind of my top 3...
 
Sorry, I stopped reading at you getting the Great Library. This can't be Deity. Even if it was (but I am sure it wasn't) you can't rely on getting it with any semblance of consistency.

Getting Petra in a SECOND city is absurd. It requires you to have no enemy AIs on a desert tile. If Morocco/Arabia/Egypt are ithe game you'd not get a chance at Petra unless you were Babylon.

Overall: the civ seems good to you because you play on easier dificulties. On those difficulties you can pull off opening Piety and never taking Rationalism and still win handily.
 
Songhai's ability is better on larger maps and slower speeds. Songhai are one of my favorite civs to play, but I always would play on Epic speed and Large maps (Huge too slow on my computer).

I love their UU and leader. Mandelaku horsemen are definitely one of my favorite UUs to use, it's very fun to get a force for four or five and then sweep through the enemy's lower-size, less developed cities insanely fast.
 
Ceranai said:
So I've been playing through my first marathon huge deity game and I just feel like saying, Songhai are so amazingly powerful. Open with a couple of scouts and pray for the archer upgrade->enough money to buy all the buildings in your first city, buy a settler leaving you free to get your first wonder rapidly (i was lucky and got writing in time to get great library).

Steal workers with your scouts and you are pretty much on an even level with the AI.

Now maybe I will drop off late game (doubtful with my 3 super archers (level 10 with no terrain penalty (I've called them Alpha, Beta, Gamma)) but I just think that Songhai needs someone to give it some love. I'll be honest until I played it looked at it's bonuses with distain but the gold you are rolling in early game lets you do pretty much anything, I bought a settler for a desert city and by buying granary and water mill was able to rush petra, again got lucky and desert folklore was still free founded Islam in the holy city of Mecca :)

A bit of side by side comparison with germany and I don't really see why I would take Germany instead of Songhai, I can buy units with the gold I get from camps and the gold is more versatile, the two promotions are actually really useful because you can be more aggressive when attacking awkward positions.

I am going to claim that early game on slower speeds Songhai played to its full potential dominates, anyone wanna put forward their own favorite early game nation?
Click to expand...

Wait you got the great library? Was it like 4th in your build order or something. I don't play deity much but EVEN on immortal that wonder gets built so fast..
 
killmeplease said:
in longer games all times are scaled proportionally with exception of unit movement and unit production
so military civs become much stronger
Click to expand...

Well I believe unit production is much longer on Marathon. It's hard to say cuz I don't play anything but Marathon lol. I do know that if you start your capital on a hill it takes 15 turns to make your first scout, and 42 turns to make your first worker. Seems like that would be a long time on normal time.
 
SecretAgent said:
Well I believe unit production is much longer on Marathon. It's hard to say cuz I don't play anything but Marathon lol. I do know that if you start your capital on a hill it takes 15 turns to make your first scout, and 42 turns to make your first worker. Seems like that would be a long time on normal time.
Click to expand...

Yep, all production times are longer, including units.

I like the marathon for several reasons. The war takes still similar time, but there's few new untis and little tech advance during it. So you don't start a war with swordsmen and finish it with musketmen. Feels that the proportions are better, more realistic.

Also, I'm prone to little mistakes and oversights...wrong movement of worker there, forget to reassing citizens or forget to bribe a CS to stay ally...on marathon, these things have less impact.
 
Myth and Legend said:
Sorry, I stopped reading at you getting the Great Library. This can't be Deity. Even if it was (but I am sure it wasn't) you can't rely on getting it with any semblance of consistency.

Getting Petra in a SECOND city is absurd. It requires you to have no enemy AIs on a desert tile. If Morocco/Arabia/Egypt are ithe game you'd not get a chance at Petra unless you were Babylon.

Overall: the civ seems good to you because you play on easier dificulties. On those difficulties you can pull off opening Piety and never taking Rationalism and still win handily.
Click to expand...

There is a guide to winning on deity with the piety opener :p.

GL is ridiculous on higher difficulties, often the fastest wonder to go and completely impossible to get, even if you grow, straight beeline it, and then switch to all hammer tiles and move it to top of queue the moment it's available.

Songhai is nevertheless much more impressive on slow speeds + large maps. You have more cities globally, which means your pillaging, conquest gold, and UB (which is relatively early) all get more emphasis. Barb pressure is greater and lasts longer, which opens up more gold in the expansion phase than you'd normally get. These things can indeed combine to push Songhai significantly higher than it would be on standard size/speed, when compared to other civs. You get disproportionately more gold and you get a good chunk of that early. It doesn't make them better than the top tier nations but it shoves them up a tier from where they'd be on standard.
 
Got to agree that Celts, who I originally thought were frustratingly weak, are in fact very, very reliable when played properly (i.e. once everyone figured out how to get the most from religion.)

I compare Songhai to Spain - Songhai will probably get more gold in the long-run, but won't get to buy a settler on turn two if the slot machine comes up 7-7-7. It's whether you prefer reliability or crazy good gambling start.
 
I would think the free amphibious promotion would be stellar on quick speed.

TheMeInTeam said:
There is a guide to winning on deity with the piety opener.
Click to expand...
I imagine there are posters on here that can beat Deity without social policies, ideology, or founding their own religion, ie not engaging in any of that type of mandatory decision, though those are the only three I can think of.
 
Nares said:
I would think the free amphibious promotion would be stellar on quick speed.

I imagine there are posters on here that can beat Deity without social policies, ideology, or founding their own religion, ie not engaging in any of that type of mandatory decision, though those are the only three I can think of.
Click to expand...

Yes of course, but I was saying that more because I believe the skill level to do that is not too far from 4 city tradition, even if the end position is weaker.
 
I like Songhai. Songhai are maybe the best civ in the game on slow speed + large map + medium/low difficulty. The settings compound for value in a really cool way.

AIs expand much, much slower on non-Deity difficulties, meaning that a lot more of the map remains in the fog of war. More fog of war means more barb camps, throughout the whole game. For most civs this is a nuisance -- more barbs you have to deal with. For Songhai it's a bonanza -- more barbs you GET to deal with. Add in a big map and slow speed, and it's just a crazy amount of money. Fun to get the Honor opener for instant notifications of new camps and go play whack-a-mole.
 
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