Need advice - Ashen Veil problems

Hello again

This time I would need some tips with Ashen Veil. Recently I haven't played civs that imo would be suited for Ashen Veil, but today I started a calabim game. And again I was reminded why I don't like Ashen Veil - The Blight. I really don't get the whole point of blight. It penalizes the one who is driving the counter too, nothing protects from it and especially my food driven theocracy-nationhood-military state-conquest combination of civics is very dependant on pop size and health since my vampires constantly terrorize the nation with feasting, I need to grow back fast, but I can't because of blight.

Every game in general that I've played with AV has ended in quitting soon after blight hits. I just feel it penalizes the evil civs too much. Is there anyway to be ashen and still avoid the blight, especially since I can't see Calabim for example benefitting too much from high AC?

PS. Blight usually hits after i've spreaded AV to my cities + 1-2 other evil ones have converted to AV.

Go for the infernal pact and start running Sac the Weak, which greatly increases the amount of extra food you'd have to negate the blight effects.

Also, you might wanna try running agrarianism to add additional food output from your farms, and perhaps aristocracy for commerce.

Everyone gets hit by the blight, sac the weak just makes you weather it much better than the rest of the civs.

Most of the time with Sac the Weak I end up running Slavery as well just to whip away the excess population.

The strength of Blight is dependent on the city size, so you should really try to whip (and, as the Calabim, Feast) the population down as low as possible when the AC gets close to 30. It may take time to build the empire back up again, but the effect of Blight will then be minimal and your quickly growing empire can out perform those whose cities are starving.


The Calabim are not really an AV oriented civ. Well, Alexis may favor the dark religion, but Flauros sees how destroying the world hurts their own power base and so strongly opposes it. He is more a Council of Esus type.

Thanks for the tips. Is there a thread which would outline general strategies for each religion? I've played around 90% ROK because it just seems to give so much compared to other religions. Don't know if it matters, but currently im playing either prince or monarch, depending how comfortable I feel with the civ I play.

For Veil, you might want to make a Malevolent Designs rush from earlier in the Strategy index. But basically, you make a bunch of ritualists, and a bunch of Diseased corpses, and some catapaults (depending on AI) and you conquer everyone

MagisterCultuum said:

The Calabim are not really an AV oriented civ. Well, Alexis may favor the dark religion, but Flauros sees how destroying the world hurts their own power base and so strongly opposes it. He is more a Council of Esus type.

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Incorrect, Calabim can't build elder councils or alchemy labs. Ashen veil gives direct bonuses to research and temple allows sages which helps them lower research rate for cash while still getting techs. Half food for population helps them as much as any other civ.

lol MC was commenting on the Calabim lore-wise

Seeing as how it was MC, he was probably stating that more from a lore standpoint than a gameplay one.

You also might consider using the term "I disagree..." instead of telling people there incorrect all of the time. Much of what is discussed here is rather subjective, and relative to the game situation at the time....something that is "incorrect" in one instance could very well work in another.

Just a thought...

You can build Temples of the Veil without adopting AV as a state religion, getting the related science benefits anyway.

I think the main attraction of AV for the Calabim is Sacrifice the Weak: you can easily grow large cities for your vampires to feast on and gain loads of XP. Plus, the cities will grow back quickly, giving you yet more feasting opportunities.

I don't find Blight particularly difficult to cope with, especially now that it is no longer doubled. I'll skip the details, there are plenty of other Blight threads where you can read about how to limit the damage Blight does to you.

Kuupie said:

Is there anyway to be ashen and still avoid the blight, especially since I can't see Calabim for example benefitting too much from high AC?

PS. Blight usually hits after i've spreaded AV to my cities + 1-2 other evil ones have converted to AV.

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AV doesn't have to mean a high AC. Research another religion first, and spread it around. Give the AI time to research one or two other religions. When most or all cities have a religion you can safely research AV without having to worry about uncontrolled passive spread driving up the AC. Spread it manually to all your cities, but not to anyone else's cities. Also, make sure you do everything you can to keep the AC suppressed as much as possible.

Well I finished the Calabim game (Capitulated everyone but Hyborem, and quit there) and yet again AV ended up doing more harm than good. I whipped aqueducts etc left and right and switched to sac the weak, but blight still totally butchered my economy. Anyway, what I also don't get how hyborem is supposed to be useful ally? The arrogant bstard just fools around and demands stuff all the time. I would have achieved conquest victory in that particular game but I cba going to war with Hyb to capitulate him since I was the one that brought him in the world. Pfft.

All in all being evil just seems to have so many handicaps compared to being neutral/good that I don't think I can be arsed to do it anytime soon again.

Just some stuff about AV...
-AV lets you run one of the debatably strongest civics in the game--Sac the Weak (StW)
-Blight hits everyone, not only you, StW makes you survive it much better than most.
-AV priests is one of the most useful ones around, Ring'o Fire rocks.
-Diseased Corpses can be pretty effective (though slightly weaker) champion replacements way before iron working can be teched. Just use your ritualists to remove the diseased if you need them to heal.
-Grimoire gives access to one of those disgusting 60 turn techs very early for possibly game-breaking units--eg. Manevolent designs for Mardero/Beasts of Agares' (Eidolons would need iron)
-Hyborem? use him as a distraction against those who were at war with you. If he was a hindrance? kill him. No one ever said you needed to cave in to his demands for techs. If you went Grimoire for Mardero, Hyborem himself isn't much of a fight against him once you Rust away his iron.



As for researching another religion just to spread it around to lower the AC, imo don't bother. Why would you want to give away religions and then go AV and make everyone else unhappy with you? Just go straight for AV and spread that round to corrupt your neighbours. If you really can't stand having hell terrain spread round, just kill off Hyborem and get life 1 adepts to sanctify the land.

heisenberg said:

As for researching another religion just to spread it around to lower the AC, imo don't bother. Why would you want to give away religions and then go AV and make everyone else unhappy with you? Just go straight for AV and spread that round to corrupt your neighbours. If you really can't stand having hell terrain spread round, just kill off Hyborem and get life 1 adepts to sanctify the land.

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Kuupie is having problems with Blight brought on by the AC rising rapidly as a result of AV spread, not hell terrain or ignorance of the benefits of following AV. Your suggestion of spreading AV around to all his neighbors is exactly what Kuupie was doing, and is why Blight is always an unavoidable hurdle for him.

The purpose of spreading another religion before founding AV, as I said, is to limit the rise of the AC from AV in an attempt to avoid being hit by Blight. Yes, that means that everyone will hate you...however I suggest that if popularity is your goal then AV is a poor choice of state religion.

Hookay, as I'm very interested into tapping to the dark side, I'll give your tips a go Heisenberg. Thanks.

Just take the hit. Blight is a one time deal and so while it is harsh you'll get over it. If you trigger it relatively earlier then it will be a lot less hassle(Less cities affected, less time taken per turn etc.).

Before blight hits, take a break from warmongering to build granaries, smokehouses, and (if you're Cabalim) breeding pits (and if fall further, creation I adepts) in your major cities. Once it wears off, you'll have 60-80% of food stored on growth, meaning you can rebound very quickly. Also, save lots of gold so your units don't disband when the inevitable economy crash comes around.

Bootsiuv said:

You also might consider using the term "I disagree..." instead of telling people there incorrect all of the time.

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Incorrect. Telling people that they failed in their opinion is the optimal strategy when their opinion differs from yours. This way they have an opportunity to adopt the correct opinion before their failure of thought hurts their lives any further.

Also, people throw rotten fruit at me because they are jealous and not because they despise my poor manners and offensive attitude.

hbar said:

Before blight hits, take a break from warmongering to build granaries, smokehouses, and (if you're Cabalim) breeding pits (and if fall further, creation I adepts) in your major cities. Once it wears off, you'll have 60-80% of food stored on growth, meaning you can rebound very quickly. Also, save lots of gold so your units don't disband when the inevitable economy crash comes around.

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Also, if you the health buildings, then the blight will have that much less impact on your cities when it hits.

Putting a little effort into triggering the blight early in the game when your cities are a bit smaller can also be useful since you can do things to lower the AC after you trigger the blight.

Personally I find health is generally a bigger problem than food or even research, especially if the AC is rising quickly and they have to deal with Blight. Thus, I find FoL (which of course also boosts the food you get from forests) works best for the Calabim mechanically.

Kuupie said:

Well I finished the Calabim game (Capitulated everyone but Hyborem, and quit there) and yet again AV ended up doing more harm than good. I whipped aqueducts etc left and right and switched to sac the weak, but blight still totally butchered my economy. Anyway, what I also don't get how hyborem is supposed to be useful ally? The arrogant bstard just fools around and demands stuff all the time. I would have achieved conquest victory in that particular game but I cba going to war with Hyb to capitulate him since I was the one that brought him in the world. Pfft.

All in all being evil just seems to have so many handicaps compared to being neutral/good that I don't think I can be arsed to do it anytime soon again.

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Whipping tends to be suboptimal in FFH. Blight is not a big deal, in fact if you have an army, it's an opportunity to hurt your opponents without getting attacked back as much.

Hyborem demands stuff from you because you're not strong. It's not Evil being disadvantaged that's the problem. The problem is that you don't know how to play effectively yet.