Aren't the Shoshone inherently superior to Ethiopia?

Athenaeum · Apr 27, 2015

The Shoshone receive the defensive combat bonus, even if the other person has fewer cities than them.

The only difference is, Shoshone cities start out with more land, and they get the Pathfinder.

Sure, I guess Ethiopia could retain their combat bonus outside of their own territory, but how often are you going to go on the offensive with Ethiopia?

dino_yoshi13 · Apr 27, 2015

Ethiopia is strong based on the fact they can get an early religion quicker than most other civs, ad their Stele provides +2 faith and is a replacement for the monument. It's definitely the first building in any Ethiopia game, and can allow you to jump start a very powerful religion.

CraigMak · Apr 28, 2015

Two totally different civs, you're comparing apples to oranges. One gets mass borders, ruin picking and defensive bonuses. The other is a religion specialist with a bonus everywhere which is much better unless you plan to be passive.

poom3619 · Apr 28, 2015

It's like saying England and Ottomans is useless in all-land or lakes map. A civ doesn't just have UA. Longbowman can still tear your non-cavalry army and city defense down and carpet of Janissary marching at your army means doom to you.

ShakaKhan · Apr 29, 2015

CraigMak said:
Two totally different civs, you're comparing apples to oranges. One gets mass borders, ruin picking and defensive bonuses. The other is a religion specialist with a bonus everywhere which is much better unless you plan to be passive.

Agreed. I can see making this argument for Shoshone>America, but Shoshone/Ethiopia is like asking which is better, apple pie or stock dividends?

Redaxe · Apr 29, 2015

Doesn't the UA bonus for Ethiopia also apply offensively so long as that civ has more cities? So it's an underdog bonus that can be used to take enemy cities whereas the Shoshone is purely defensive?

dino_yoshi13 · Apr 29, 2015

ShakaKhan said:
Agreed. I can see making this argument for Shoshone>America, but Shoshone/Ethiopia is like asking which is better, apple pie or stock dividends?

Well, if you take some of the money from the stock dividends you can buy the apple pie anyways...

TheMeInTeam · Apr 30, 2015

ShakaKhan said:
Agreed. I can see making this argument for Shoshone>America, but Shoshone/Ethiopia is like asking which is better, apple pie or stock dividends?

America is a lot more of an offensive warmonger civilization, especially in the mid-late game. I'd argue that Shoshone is better overall, but that the extra vision and access to a UU with excellent rough terrain mobility and easy access to cover II make for a nation that is preferable in some scenarios, particularly naval engagements where a sight advantage can be more crucial than normal.

Gen.Washington · Apr 30, 2015

America is the best civ in the game for combat. +1 sight means arty doesn't need spotters and if you keep minutemen and upgrade them all the way to mechanized infantry you have a super army that ignores terrain cost and probably has been promoted several time, combine those with a bunch of carrier-borne b-17s and you can invade any city even if it's out of range for your stealth bombers.
Plus buying tiles for 1/2 off is a huge help in the early game rush for resources and strategic positions.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 30, 2015

Gen.Washington said:
America is the best civ in the game for combat. +1 sight means arty doesn't need spotters and if you keep minutemen and upgrade them all the way to mechanized infantry you have a super army that ignores terrain cost and probably has been promoted several time, combine those with a bunch of carrier-borne b-17s and you can invade any city even if it's out of range for your stealth bombers.
Plus buying tiles for 1/2 off is a huge help in the early game rush for resources and strategic positions.

Good, but not best. The early advantages of nations like Huns, Arabia or Mongolia for example crush the warmonger advantages America gets.

Minutemen are good, but they aren't THAT good.

Sessy · Apr 30, 2015

It's very naive to just compare 2 civs with the UA, but then you mentioned the more land part of UA and pathfinder. Ethiopia's greatest asset isn't the combat bonus at all imo, neither is it for the Shoshone.

Solutionfinder · May 1, 2015

From my personal experience, Ethiopia is eaier to play with. It`s 2+ to religion from each city you have and it`s the first building you get so that`s a massive bonus. And in early stages of the game in higher difficulty it gives you better chances to defend against an invasion.

I like Shoshone because of a pathfinder but once all the ruins are claimed, Ethiopia has an advantage all along.

As for America being best on offensive, I have to disagree. Huns and their battering ram early on is by far best civ, followed by Zulu and massive Impi production with army maintenance reduction and extra unit promotion.

RuleroftheHex · May 3, 2015

Gen.Washington said:
America is the best civ in the game for combat. +1 sight means arty doesn't need spotters and if you keep minutemen and upgrade them all the way to mechanized infantry you have a super army that ignores terrain cost and probably has been promoted several time, combine those with a bunch of carrier-borne b-17s and you can invade any city even if it's out of range for your stealth bombers.
Plus buying tiles for 1/2 off is a huge help in the early game rush for resources and strategic positions.

If anything, America is the weakest domination civ. Its UUs don't coincide timewise, so unlike the Huns and Sweden, for example, they can't build off each other. B-17s are only 8% stronger than standard Bombers, and Evasion is a weak promotion. Meanwhile, the only thing about Minutemen that is even remotely useful is the ignore terrain feature. +1 Sight is only useful in the early game for ruins. The old reduction is meaningless, since I usually buy 5 tiles at most across the game.

NukeAJS · May 3, 2015

You can warmonger with Ethiopia. Just raze every non-capital and you keep their bonus -- even in foreign lands.

SeedenGreedens · May 3, 2015

Ethiopia is good at religion and if it has a smaller civilization than others than it can get a bonus similar to the bonus that shoshone gets by default. The major differences are that ethiopia gets more religious bonuses but shoshone gets a lot more tiles surrounding a city that gets built by them.
The units, mehal sefari is a good unique unit that replaces the rifleman and is better than the average rifleman. The shoshone has a pair of units that are unique to it too such as the pathfinder which allows you to choose the beginning bonuses of the ancient ruins as well as the comanche riders which start with promotion mobility, allowing them to move 5 times instead of 4.

IkM · May 3, 2015

Shoshone is better than Ethiopia. Yes, Ethiopia has early religion advantage but Shoshone has Pathfinder, which helps a lot to get religion.

reddishrecue · May 3, 2015

Ethiopia can get a lot more faith from its buildings than Shoshone. That depends on what aspect each civilization is good at since Ethiopia is good at faith.

Gen.Washington · May 3, 2015

RuleroftheHex said:
If anything, America is the weakest domination civ. Its UUs don't coincide timewise, so unlike the Huns and Sweden, for example, they can't build off each other. B-17s are only 8% stronger than standard Bombers, and Evasion is a weak promotion. Meanwhile, the only thing about Minutemen that is even remotely useful is the ignore terrain feature. +1 Sight is only useful in the early game for ruins. The old reduction is meaningless, since I usually buy 5 tiles at most across the game.

No.
+1 sight is very useful throughout the whole game, like I said, arty can fire without a spotter and your troops can spot for bombers far enough back to be out of danger. Minutemen have a rough ground bonus which makes them amazing for hit and run tactics, and the B17 is still the most powerful non nuclear truly global siege weapon.

The US is not the best brute force combat civ, but with some strategy and planning it is amazing. Remember, you only fight if the fight is in your favor, rough terrain for example, and if you can't win, fall back and force them to fight on your terms. The flexibility is what it's about.

RuleroftheHex · May 3, 2015

Gen.Washington said:
No.
+1 sight is very useful throughout the whole game, like I said, arty can fire without a spotter and your troops can spot for bombers far enough back to be out of danger. Minutemen have a rough ground bonus which makes them amazing for hit and run tactics, and the B17 is still the most powerful non nuclear truly global siege weapon.

The US is not the best brute force combat civ, but with some strategy and planning it is amazing. Remember, you only fight if the fight is in your favor, rough terrain for example, and if you can't win, fall back and force them to fight on your terms. The flexibility is what it's about.

Why would you want to have an arty without a spotter? It's no trouble to have a single Sentry-promoted unit set up on a hill. Meanwhile, America may be flexible on the battlefield, but only with their infantry. In terms of time, they conquer in the midgame and endgame, leaving an awkward lapse in which no one trades with you and you are trying to make up for playing militaristically. Everyone denounces you because you can't clean up the mess you made with Minutemen until you hit Radar. The gold reduction for buying tiles, as I said, has little if any significance. America's B17s are lackluster, because they can't do that much that a standard Bomber can't. Also, air-based combat is hardly the most important form of attack in the late game. Minutemen are somewhat strong, but they make everything a mess diplomatically. Compare America to Arabia. Arabia's Camel Archers are one of the strongest UUs in the game, and they are backed by Bazaars and Ships of the Desert for infrastructure. America, meanwhile, is disjointed with 3 Uniques that have little, if anything, to do with each other.

Gen.Washington · May 3, 2015

Lets just agree to disagree, eh?
Quick question, what is your favorite military civ? not necessarily for domination, but just fighting in general.

Aren't the Shoshone inherently superior to Ethiopia?

Prince

Chieftain

The Borg

Ping Pang Poom!

King

Emperor

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If A implies B...

Anti-communist

If A implies B...

Prince

Warlord

Chieftain

King

Chieftain

King

Some dude on civfans

Anti-communist

Chieftain

Anti-communist

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