Advert for the HOF site

Hall Of Fame, which in effect means competing against some of the most Elite players that ever played this game! Well that sounds really daunting doesn't it! You don't really want to make a fool of yourself, so you just won't try! I often read articles from Civ fans who claim to be bored with the game, for their benefit and for the sake of many others too, just take on board the following.

1- You don't have to be a good player to compete.

2- If you truly are a fanatic, you can enter the VVV which equates to a kind of league table which scores you points for every entry you make. IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO JOIN IN!

3- I am pretty rubbish at the game and yet performing very well!

4- If you look in on the HOF site, you will find that the Elite players are very friendly and helpful. AMAZINGLY SO!

5- There are some very stringent rules that have to be followed, but don't be deterred!

5- TAKE A LOOK GUYS!

6- DON'T GET BORED WAITING FOR CIV6, COME AND JOIN IN!

The Hall of Fame is a lot of fun, and has kept me playing Civ for many more months than I would have otherwise. The key to the Hall of Fame is the strict rule against reloading/replaying turns. Not only does this add a lot of tension to the game, it also enables the game to become a challenge on all difficulty levels. Think about it -- beating the AI on Chieftain may not be a challenge, but do you think you can play 300 turns without making any mistakes? That's a whole lot harder.

This hugely expands the world of the game -- each difficulty becomes not just "harder" or "easier", but also its own unique environment, where gold and tech and land and military and wonder availability are all varied. I know there are a lot of players who would like a bit more challenge from the game, but don't want to play at Deity. I get that. Deity is interesting, but it's really limiting -- we all love to wonder-spam, right? With the Hall of Fame, you don't have to play at Deity to get a challenge.

I think the Hall of Fame is great, and I really recommend checking it out. In addition to the HoF forums, the HoF site itself is a nice tool for coming up with ideas for settings to play on. You can really delve in and see the great diversity of games that people have submitted over the years.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=412

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/index.php

The main reason why people don't play HoF games is boredom of rerolling good start, eg for my last Hof game I rerolled about 50 times.

You can of course try to convince that someone can submit any game even without great start, but for me it's like starting in marathon competition with broken leg

From time to time I see people propose game in HOF rules, but with common start to avoid endless rolling (like GOTM but always on deity, or DCL, but with victory condition) what can be some solution, but who would check it?

I would like to see even more competitive games with same start, HoF rules, but with full map knowledge from start to reduce impact of ''luck'' to minimum (and maybe even without ruins unless Shoshone), but amount of HOF participant currently is so small that maybe I will try to make it with civilization 6.

What do people think of the idea of a thread where DCL-free 'good' maps are posted?

If we get enough, say 50+ or more, and no one spoils them, then people could use them for their HOF-style attempts. They could be posted without a picture of starting location, just with the knowledge that they are 'good'. If HOF wouldn't allow for this, then really it will never attract enough people because re-rolling is more boring that plucking unwanted hairs.

IronfighterXXX said:

The main reason why people don't play HoF games is boredom of rerolling good start, eg for my last Hof game I rerolled about 50 times.

You can of course try to convince that someone can submit any game even without great start, but for me it's like starting in marathon competition with broken leg

Click to expand...

OK, so we now know the main reason why you don't play HOF games, but do you really think your actions of rerolling 50 times is a common practice amongst all the HOF participants? I can imagine your scenario amongst the very best of players, each player thinking that if they don't get the very best of starts along with the most favourable results from ruins then someone else will. What you mention here is a competitive attitude where finishing outside the top three is not an option!

The reason I started this thread was to let people know that there are competitors of all levels on the HOF which has a scoring system that rewards all comers. You can find your own niche on the VVV and compete with those around you.

consentient said:

What do people think of the idea of a thread where DCL-free 'good' maps are posted?

If we get enough, say 50+ or more, and no one spoils them, then people could use them for their HOF-style attempts. They could be posted without a picture of starting location, just with the knowledge that they are 'good'. If HOF wouldn't allow for this, then really it will never attract enough people because re-rolling is more boring that plucking unwanted hairs.

Click to expand...

There was similar idea in a past, but unfortunately it turned out to be impossible
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=530870

EDIT: I think it's really a shame as another main reason (besides rerolling) in my opinion why people don't play HoF games is that for many people idea of playing competitive games with different starts is at least strange.

NiceOneEmlyn said:

OK, so we now know the main reason why you don't play HOF games, but do you really think your actions of rerolling 50 times is a common practice amongst all the HOF participants?

Click to expand...

Well, seeing some games eg. 7 turn dual deity domination victory it's really not hard to prove that people rerolling, sometimes a lot

I would say its not only strange to play competitive games on different maps but pointless too. There is already enough RNG between playthroughs to create different experiences for different players, let alone having completely different maps.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with using a pre-rolled map which is 'certified' as good.

If the existing HOF won't do it, maybe they could at least tell someone who IS willing to do it HOW they check to see if people cheated or not.

If someone tells me how, I'll happily check people's submissions. I'm not rolling the starts though.

consentient said:

If the existing HOF won't do it, maybe they could at least tell someone who IS willing to do it HOW they check to see if people cheated or not.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I suppose that if they would tell how to do it, it could be also easy to modify save to remain undetected. (in case of cheating)

I have participated at a handful of gauntlets in the past but I'm not really interested anymore. The lack of a map finder makes rerolling a chore. The other thing is that the variation between maps clearly decreases and the whole theorycrafting is centered around ideal and easy maps. For example there is no judgement of whether SS spam is good or not, you just roll your shuffle map until you can make it work and with a good starting pantheon to boot.

On the other hand it's true you could play for VVV and just post the games you play without too much rerolling but then I don't find that setting competitive enough and rather solitary.

I preffer GOTM by far for these reasons. Don't understand why it isn't presented on the front page like HOF though... The only issue is that it's only one play every 2 weeks which is why I play DCL maps the rest of the time.

Hall of fame is a good opportunity to show off your skills as you submit your finished game and compete witg the other players that are also submitting their games. The best game is accepted of course like all other things that you get to apply to such as a job. Hof not only allows you to submit your games for an opportunity to be the best but hof also gets the records of past winners that have submitted their own games to see if your favorite characters got to be victorious.

IronfighterXXX said:

Unfortunately, I suppose that if they would tell how to do it, it could be also easy to modify save to remain undetected. (in case of cheating)

Click to expand...

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. I guess the only way to be sure would be to live-stream every attempt! Which could make it very tricky!

@Acken: Do you play the lower-level GOTMs?

Yes I do.

I think Ironfighter is probably on the extreme end when it comes to re-rolling... 50 is a lot! I probably play about 1/5 of the starts I roll. I do subsequently bail on a lot of games after scouting if I don't like the map, but I'm still playing Civ during those times -- it's not like I'm just sitting there looking at starts.

If, like me, you don't have the patience to re-roll 50 times, the re-rolling process can actually be interesting. Looking at a start and evaluating how good it is actually takes a lot of thought. There are a lot of factors in starting dirt alone -- resources, freshwater, coast, mountain, jungle, etc. This doesn't even get into quality and number of expansions, natural wonders, city-states, ruins... If you aren't going to re-roll a million times for the godliest of starts, you're inevitably going to be missing some of these things. You need to compromise and figure out what's good enough and what you can live without. And when you find a start that you like enough you have to stop rolling and play, or else you lose the map forever. It's not like you can roll 50 times and then go back and pick the start you liked most. So, yeah, your mileage may vary, but it certainly isn't necessary to roll 50 starts if you want to participate.

And speaking as someone who's been very serious about competitive card games at certain points in my life, I feel that the random factor adds to the enjoyment. If would be boring if the most skilled player won every single time. If you aren't the best (and most of us aren't), it would feel hopeless. With a bit of randomness, more people get chances to post good results. But it's not like the randomness matters THAT much -- good players are still going to post good results on average, and the fastest game for any given gauntlet will usually be a good player who also had some good luck. It all averages out in the long run.

At least three of the guys responding to this thread are top notch players, it seems to have resorted to the usual old argument between the pro's and cons of GOTM v HOF. Personally, I am inspired by the fact that HOF has a league table that benefits all comers including old sluggers like myself. I cannot disagree with a single word that Manpanzee has posted, damn good player and it seems a guy with lots of common sense!!

Well I know your intention was to show that HOF can be fun, even for players like me that are not good enough to compete with the Ackens of the world, most of the time.

For me, I would like to at least give it a try. Let's say that at least 7 times out of 10 Acken will handily crush me if we were competing, but between 1 and 3 times out of 10, I can get quite near to him. We had an equal time for ICL Aztecs, for example, and he's beaten me by a few turns on peaceful victories a handful of times.

Therefore I would welcome the chance to compete in a HOF-style game with him ON THE SAME MAP. I suppose people would say, well, you can do this on the GOTM. But the problem there is that the maps are not chosen as being good, and I think that one of the symptoms of me being not as good as Acken is that I will fare relatively worse on a bad map than he would.

Also, no offence to the organisers of the series, but the maps there are just not to my interest at all. I like Pangaea/Continents/some Fractal, which can be interesting for DomV and CV. The last two maps I played were the Immortal Sweden one where you , and the Gandhi OCC one. In the Sweden game, I quit because it was much too easy to go full Honor, ally all the CS and crush him, but then have to wait ages to meet anyone else. In the Gandhi game, I could have won but was bored of pushing next turn and not even having any action from the psychos who had been threatening to attack me. OCC Science is probably the lamest thing ever, IMO.

So while I'm not a top-notch player, I agree with the analogy with card games, and when I played MTG: Duel Commander, I lost most of the tournament games I played, but every now and then my Rafiq deck would take me to the latter stages of a few of them. That's why, if there are other players looking to play HOF style competitive games ON THE SAME MAP, I would be VERY interested.

Please PM me if you are interested.

I already cant follow the frequency of DCL :/

OK, you're right, I guess there aren't so many players like me who want a new game every few days. I was just hoping that some would come out of the woodwork and we could have a competitive HOF style version of the DCL. The DCL is great but the maps are not optimised most of the time, and I don't play the maps in a single HOF-style session, most of the time.

Participating in HOF's gauntlets has been a great experience for me. I've improved a lot as a player and I enjoy the format. Personally I don't like replaying the same map, to me it's more exciting to roll a new one under the same settings, then try not to repeat my mistakes and beat my previous finish time by as many turns as I can, refine my strategy or execute a different one and see if it's viable/competitive.

I also like the variety of challenges HOF provides. It's opened my eyes to how interesting it can be to play on settings that I normally wouldn't even bother trying. DiploV on Chieftain may sound really boring, but going for a sub-170 win under these settings really changes things. Playing all these different setups can even lead to new strategies being discovered, such as the Greek Liberation culture victory.

Rerolling... Is a drag yes, but Manpanzee points are very relevant. You are changing maps all the time, and sometimes the civ gods will offer you a great start. What can I do with it? Will I be able to play it perfectly? You actually play through many maps, not just generate them, take a look and move on.

But for me, there are the four VERY important factors:

- The learning: when you set up to play a specific map with a specific SV and a specific civ, you learn a lot. Not just from your own mistakes, but also from the constant feedback in the forum. You try different strategies and you end up understanding the most optimal way to play.
- The innovation: I still remember when Vadalaz came up with the Greek Liberation strategy. Something new under the sun! It was an amazing demonstration of out of the box thinking, research and execution. Or Maanzee's experimantation with Liberty. Or the Heathen Conversion gauntlet with all of us trying to make it work. Or Cromagnus incredible posts about Diplo or Time games, with an amazing level of intelligence.
- The conversation: the HOF players are incredibly generous with their advice and their comments. There are no aggressive posts and everybody values every single entry, and every single post, not just the winning ones. It is an enormous vault of knowledge, the very first thing I do when faced with a new civ or map, I look at a gauntlet with those settings and I read through it. Also, everybody is talking about the same thing: how to create the most optimal play, the fastest win time. Context is always clear, the settings are there for all to see. The community is fantastic and incredibly welcoming of new players.
- Finally and as important as the above, the relevance. What you do matters. There are no second chances, or if there are, they will be there with a different map. You have to play perfectly and every turn counts. If you make a mistake, you try your best to recover from it. No replaying the same map, no reloading. Your name in the Hall of Fame, even a medal, the respect of superb players, your own respect for yourself and for your game. And the legacy you are leaving: your results stay there, your saves will be used by others to learn the game. It is a challenge to do your best in every turn.

I understand that it is not for everybody. But if you are trying to get better at the game, fast, you want to have intelligent discussions with superb players, focused on what matters, if you want every turn to matter, then HOF is for you.