In-Depth Guide: Mayan/Arabian ICS strategy.

I was trying to hit 60 cities and 2000 beakers/turn by turn 300 and didn't quite get there, largely because of having to burn down some larger AI cities to create space (which limited my happiness).

The conditions were Emperor, standard pangaea plus map (-1 AI civ) and low sea level. This created a little bit more starting space for the purpose of the exercise.

I was trying to hit 60 cities and 2000 beakers/turn by turn 300 and didn't quite get there, largely because of having to burn down some larger AI cities to create space (which limited my happiness).

The conditions were Emperor, standard pangaea plus map (-1 AI civ) and low sea level. This created a little bit more starting space for the purpose of the exercise.

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So u see now that size 5 cities are far from optimal? Even with doing ridicules micro - 60 cities .. - u d loose with this style at higher difficulties.

10 cities with size 10 are just better as 25 cities with size 5
and best is 10 cities with size 25

maybe I ll do ICS like Approach if there is a GOTm where start looks like pangea, getting kinda tired of Tradition tree but enjoed a "peaceful" mp duel where I went Liberty. Pagodas and cathedrals all the way baby. Early piety is just the way to go for ICS

tommynt said:

So u see now that size 5 cities are far from optimal? Even with doing ridicules micro - 60 cities .. - u d loose with this style at higher difficulties.

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that's why i asked him what difficulty. i couldnt imagine seeing that happen so easily on immortal or diety, particularly after seeing his army size.

I knew you wouldn't understand the point of the exercise, tommy, and for that you didn't disappoint. Clearly I have never stated that this is an optimal strategy in any way, shape or form. I did, however, prove to myself that the "I" in ICS clearly can be "infinite" as I got to the stage where I could place as many cities as I desired and still remain happiness neutral.

@hammer I'm sure this would work on Immortal as I was at least 20 techs ahead of the nearest AI on Emperor. I grabbed the tech lead early and just increased it from there. I had a reasonable sized army over to the west (off of the screenshot), but at that point I was 2-3 shotting cities with stealth bombers anyway so I didn't really need much of an army

Of course Deity is another animal altogether and spreading yourself so thin to start would be a recipe for disaster.

I did, however, prove to myself that the "I" in ICS clearly can be "infinite" as I got to the stage where I could place as many cities as I desired and still remain happiness neutral.

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a simple 1+1+1+1+1 math u can do in 2 minutes, d have tolled u that.
But obviously a 10+ hour gives same result.

tommynt said:

a simple 1+1+1+1+1 math u can do in 2 minutes, d have tolled u that.
But obviously a 10+ hour gives same result.

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lol, there is actually some fun in DOING something that you only did the theoretical math for. i mean, random conditions actually do apply. why even bother playing single player at all when you have all the math down anyway?

@Rooftrellen:

I probably wouldnt see the bombers stationed even if you had a bunch. I was only looking for land units. My bad. I also wasnt thinking about the turn or the era you were in.

I love how much unspoilt countryside here is in your empire! There should be a happiness bonus for all the extra land for recreation!

Hammer Rabbi said:

lol, there is actually some fun in DOING something that you only did the theoretical math for

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On a practical note: Maybe you can set up ICS poll + challenge like you did for science? Would be interesting to see how different ICS approaches work and which way could be the most optimal. I guess Deity would be little harsh, but emperor/immortal could work for a wide array of players. What do you think?

EDIT: Perhaps a handicap can be involved: like total domination (take every city on map)

that would be interesting and i might do that but i need to wait til the patch's patch comes out. the auto-annex bug is a big deal for ICS since conquering is a large part of it. the happiness calculations are way too good to make it a fair challenge.

and a short list of civs to do this with is preferable. i dont want to do a 6 civ challenge again, 4 at most i think, Maya being one of them plus whoever else is good for wide sprawl type of games. Domination would be the VC too.

Maya
Arabia
France
China

Probably add Rome in there as well.

A quick question though, when do you start the settler spam?

Fractal on emperor:

I tried last night with Arabia and it was almost turn 100. I had 6 cities, my only neighbor, Japan, DOWed me at turn 60 (extorted a good peace deal from him though, I only lost my initail warrior-turned spearman). However, I'm not even close to 50 BPT (my libraries are probably too late), and we were stuck in an island together, with 4 CSes none of them Mercantile.

I am unhappy (dipped into very unhappy territory too), have negative GPT and way behind in Tech. I do have a religion with the happiness benefits (Desert Folklore, Ceremonial Burial and Shrine Happy). I quit because I needed to sleep, and I felt like it was not going as I wanted it to be. It was turn 90 and I just finished Horse Archers.

Probably spawning in a BARREN desert (only one Oasis and no river) was the cause. Because of that, my Desert Folklore was useless (no good workable desert tiles). I did have three unique luxes though. Thing is, that start would have been Godly for a 4-city Tradition approach because of all the Salt.

Will try again some time.

A quick question though, when do you start the settler spam?

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read my little guide like 25 posts ago.

But shortly said - after u got the sp for the production bonus.
Use the like 25 turns till it to grow the cap (to be able to use more production tiles while u spam) and possibly build pyramids.
U should have at least 1 early worker to mine every hill around your cap (and work horses)

edit:
and about fav civ:
I think u can add egypt for me

I think maya, egypt and france are best suited civs .. and ethopia - i might even rate it higer as france.

With ICS i just want a strong religion to get Pagodas up early and everywhere - target might be 100 faith around turn 80 or before.
Egypt got the bonus of a faster early pyramid and it might be able to squeze a fast stonehenge in aswell - giving a free early engineer.

But overall maya should just be best one and: France, egypt and ethopia/celts as 2nd tier

interesting list and was really surprised to wake up to the patch fix release today. after thanksgiving i'll start working on a map. i definitely like maya and france as a choice, ethiopia too but they arent 100% with me.

i'll take the weekend to think on a 3rd and 4th. i dont think ill do a poll about it though. maybe if others say who their choice would be in here i'll just do an informal tally. so far i see arabia, china, egypt and celts as suggestions. im already leaning to a civ with a solid early UU for dom rolling, and ranged horses are certainly big options.

also, ruins or no ruins? this isnt as hotly a debated topic like the science vics were so it's more just doing this so people can choose the civs they want to try this with.

If you want an experiment, it would be in your best interest to remove as many random factors as possible.

well the other challenge was meant to be as close to a competition as to what civ is better at sci vics (without having ways to prove it like HoF or GotM). this doesnt seem to be an interest other than people wanting to try ICS games. but still, im fine with or without ruins, so i'll chalk yours up to 'no ruins' as a vote if you'd prefer to play all of the civs and test for yourself who is 'better' at ICS. if i find that people will prefer to try and prove it i will not include ruins.

edit: i just realized im hijacking the conversation in here so ill start a new thread so as not to take away from this. apologies.

edit: thread is here.

Tried this one out and I think I managed to get to 20 cities before it got tedious... My Military was a grand total of 1 pike, 6 Camels and 1 Horseman. This was on Emperor, fighting a war in two fronts. I quit at turn 200 because it just wasn't fun anymore. That does it. I'm really only suited to 4-8 city Tall.

I've tried this strategy with both the Arabians and the Maya. I've been playing the Maya a lot more because of the early science boost. Combined with Messenger of the Gods it can give you an early tech lead before you even build libraries in your cities.

Something I've been thinking about is trying it with the Dutch. If you get a desert start you can pick up Desert Folklore to generate faith and you can build polders on flood plains when you get to Guilds. Also, their UA would let you trade more of your luxuries and still put new cities down. They're definitely not an ideal civ to try this with, but if you get a desert start as the Dutch it would be interesting to try.

nice guide! I play maya many times, but i always take tradition going focused. Interesting to read an different strategy.
But note that the maya UA depends on years, not turns. If you research Theogy later, you have to wait longer for each person, reducing the profit

The long-count is by years, not turns, but years do correspond to turns. From another thread, it appears that the long-count years are (at standard speed):

72, 86, 101, 117, 133, 152, 183, 234 and 433

So, if you research Theology after turn 72 (pretty common), your first long-count GP should come on turn 86. That would get you the full complement of 7 GPs by turn 234. Turn 432 is 2012 in real years, but you get the next GP on turn 433 (in the game, 2013 is the first year of the next b'ak'tun).

yes, that is what i mean. Probably turn 72 is not the first bak'tun, but the fifth. But get Theology before turn 60 is almost impossible

Thanks for this guide.
I have been trying in the past 3 weeks to win on deity with ICS (still unsuccesfully, but improving...) with Mayans (mainly), Arabia and France.
I would have the following comment based on my experience and would like to have your views:

1) Diplomacy:
It seems impossible to win without focusing heavily on diplomacy. One has to anticipate when another player will DoW you (for example, a Atilla runs short of other neighbours and start to look at your land with a grim). Trying to have the other players fight each other (and especially making sure that the runoff civ is at war with a relevant opponent)
Because of that, I am not so much in favor of stealing workers. In ICS, you have to trade around 10-15 luxuries all the time against 240gold. If you have hostile or even war computeurs, you can't sell them and then you cannot buy your settlers.
I still manage to have only one opponent most of the time. Most of the games I lost where because someone declared war while my troopst where fighing elsewhere -> I think that trying to be friends is key
Also, something that I discovered a bit late is “si vis pacem, para bellum”: it is important to show a fat army to your neighbours just to avoid that they DoW you. Then you can choose your opponents. Therefore, continue to build / upgrade your army even if you do not plan to wage war short term.

2) Science
I read in your guide to build a library before a monument. Also, often read that Messengers of the God is a must "epsecially with the Mayans". I completely disagree. With mayans, you already have the wonderful pyramid to give you +2science (and the faith to found early). What you need is therefore happiness to be able to continue spamming cities to get those +2 science or ways to have more settlers. Hence, I think that besides desert folklore which is OP, other situational pantheon are better:
- sacred waters (1 happiness near rivers) give you the needed happiness to continue spamming. It continue to scale in the game as if you wage war and puppet and have ca 20-30 cities late in the game, it is likely that you will have 4-8 happiness from that. Especially, if you have rivers, trade routes come late (as you need to have engineering which I think should come after Construction and theology -> late)
- culture stuff (from wine / incense or jungle or gold…) is useful in your capital. The +4 / +6 culture you get will help you to quickly move on the liberty tree (especially to get the free settler or the +1 happiness from trade routes, both key to city spam). Also, it helps to expand borders on your capital, which is often useful to get luxuries within 3 hex
But obviously, if nothing situational make sense, MotG is very good. I just find that the trade routes arrive a bit late to get the benefit
For the same reasons, early libraries are useless: they will get you 1 science for your other cities, maybe 2, which early is nothing compared to spamming a new city which will build a pyramid

3) Random tips
- Founding on luxuries is fantastic
- Founding on hills and making sure that there is another hill nearby to work on is key (to keep city at 1 pop until religion arrive)
It took me time to realize this, as after playing civ for 20 years, I am wired to build my cities on “nice spot”. But not in ICS ! you just need lots of early production and luxuries
Also, the bonus defense is great
Beware of enemy religions: since you will have plenty of 1-3 pop cities, if your neighbors found before you, you will instantly give him a huge base of followers and you will have a hard time to convert them back (wasting liberty bonus on a great prophet instead of a goold old engineer)

4) But I screw up…
Hey, I give tips, but I keep loosing, so I am still missing something.
I think one issue I have is that I still like to develop my cities (once they have been converted to religion): I build granaries, workshops... And always find an excuse thing to build instead of a good old crossbowman. I should probably just pump out more units to gain wars. Also, I hate loosing units, so I probably do not take enough risk. Maybe if I move my units earlier next to an enemy city, I will loose 2 but will conquer the city earlier and get a nice peace treaty…

Cheers