Rise of Asia

Stormrage said:

7ronin, all I`m saying is you don`t need european stuff, this would be, like any other civ-game, an alt-history game.

That doesn`t meen throw out tanks, all stuff westerners invented, I`m talking about the so-called western contact techs. Or is this going to be a historicaly accurate scenario. Cos, for all we know, in a Civ world, first white man a chinese would see could be wearing a centurion helmet! You know, what I mean?

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I do indeed! Just so we are all on the same page, for game purposes nothing exists outside Asia but the civs are perfectly capable of developing on their own all the characteristics of a "modern" 19th Century civ (assuming of course that this meets our leader's approval).

yeah, if I can be the first to discover steam power playing as Rome in vanilla, so can I dunno, say India! And in the Rise of Asia, all those western barbarians get industrialized by the east

yes but UUs should be focused on classical and medievil eras. Since it is "Rise" of Asia and the game focuses on the pre-industrial periods.

yes but UUs should be focused on classical and medievil eras. Since it is "Rise" of Asia and the game focuses on the pre-industrial periods.

That I leave up to you, I just wanted to dropp by with my 2 septims

ShiroKobbure said:

yes but UUs should be focused on classical and medievil eras. Since it is "Rise" of Asia and the game focuses on the pre-industrial periods.

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I have no preference one way or the other, but just to play Devil's advocate, if the game is focused on the classical and medieval eras, why have an industrial era at all? If all the fun is in the first two eras then the last one is just kind of an afterthought. Plus drop the industrial era and you have one third less development overhead to worry about.

most of the units in industrial are generic western units so it isnt that much work, also to fill the gap

So to recap, it looks like we still need UUs for:

Champa[Vietnam]
Pyu[Burma]
Srivijaya[Malysia]
Han Ch'au[China]
Taprobane[Sri Lanka]
Gangahrd[Bangladesh]
Khunnu Empire[Mongolia]
Hun Confederacy/ Wu Hu[Eurasian Steppes]

Okay, then for
Taprobane - coastal trader (available in ancient era)- essentially a dhow type ship with increased movement and transport rate; doesn't sink in sea squares [makes up for being stuck on a small island]
Han - Crossbowman (available in ancient era)
Hun Confederacy - Hun Cavalry (available ancient age)increased movement rate, pillage
Khunnu Empire - Mongol Heavy Cavalry (available in medieval era)powerful attack/excellent defense, pillage, zoc
Gangahrd - Mahout (a war elephant available in medieval) ignores jungle and marsh movement costs, detects invisilbles (if any)
Pyu - Sangha Warrior Monk (available medieval era) invisible?
Srivijaya - ? ?
Champa - ? ?

@Shiro - you may want to reconsider the Ghurka for Syaka as it is an industrial era unit.

governments:

Oligarchy would cover the Roman Republic type governments, which were common (if still a minority of cases) in classical India. I'm sure they existed elsewhere. I have vague memories of some of the Khans being chosen by a council of tribal leaders. Malaysia has a rotating ruler elected for a limited term from among his peers to this day.

Bureacracy would include cases like the Brahmin dominated governments in South Asia, as well as the Confucian meritocracy, where the monarch is a figurehead.

Here is a thought on sea lines:

Sampan
|
|
v
Dhow
|
|
v
War Junk and Merchant Junk------------->Pirate Junk (privateer)
|
|
v
Frigate and Merchantman
|
|
Steam Frigate and Steam Transport ------>Ironclad
|
|---------------------------------------->Torpedo Boats
|
v
Armored Cruiser
Pre-Dreadnought Battleship--------------->Coastal Submarine

Steam transport is the most advanced transport. There are no armored transports until the 20th Century. Sampan, Dhow, Merchant Junk, Merchantman and Steam Transport can carry land units. Seagoing submarines capable of carrying on open ocean fleet operations didn't really appear until the middle of World War I (ca. 1916) but you could certainly add them to make the game scarier. Ironclads, Torpedo Boats and Submarines are dead ends off the main line. Steam Frigate/Steam Transport are both made available by the same tech (whatever that might be); as are Armored Cruiser/Pre-Dreadnought Battleship, and Merchant Junk/War Junk. A Torpedo Boat is a proto-destroyer. The Dhow is usually thought of as an Arab vessel but similar boats were operated in the Indian Ocean and the "Spice Islands" by various Asian peoples.

@OtM: How does this compare to the research you did?

A summary of governments thus far considered,:

Anarchy
------------------
Ancient Era:

Tribalism (The steppe civs start with this)

Despotism (Everyone else starts with this)

Monarchy
-------------------
Medieval Era:

Bureaucracy

Oligarchy
-------------------
Industrial Era:

Constitutional Monarchy

Meiji Model

Total of seven (plus Anarchy) which seems a workable number spread over all three eras. An additional or alternate choice might be Military Dictator.

Good government choices Ronin. I'd add Buddist Theocracy as well, maybe some sort of pacifist type government with big happiness bonuses and the potencial to produce ALOT of culture.

I have a great sea line up already actually Ronin:

Transports: Used for trade and for carrying your soldiers to enemy territories

Fishing Boat.....Early Junk.....Cargo Junk......Cannon Cargo Junk......Some Steam Transport of somekind.....

Warships: Light: Until the late ages of the game they are the only naval warships you can build, later they are really cheap but weaker alternatives to say, Crusiers or Battleships

Battle Junk.......Gun Junk........War Junk............Ironsail(Aaglo's asian sailing ironclad)........

Warships: First come into play the third era(Earlier for the Koreans), they have really strong bombarding ability and are alittle stronger in attack and defense than light warships, however, they will fall to light warships superior numbers in prolonged skirmishes. They are effective in softing up Heavy Warships.

Turtleship(Only Korea)....Ironclad(Wyrmshadow's Chinese Ironclad)


Heavy Warships: There are two heavy warships, both come into play in the Imperial Age, the final era of the mod.

Pre-Dreadnought...........Dreadnought

Theres also the Baode, which is produced by a wonder, the Baode Treasure Fleet. Since Aaglo gave that thing a crap load of cannons, maybe it could be an early Heavy Warship in the third era plus a transport lol.

Here is a gallery of thumbnail images for graphics inspiration:

First up are some images of Tuanku Syed Sirajudan, the current Rajah of Malaysia, on formal state occasions; suitable for an industrial era SE Asian leaderhead:

Kushan units - a statue of Kanishka (note the stirrup like straps on the boots; maybe a model for the lancer unit?), drawings from bas-reliefs of two soldiers and a female guard:

Similar drawings from the Mauryan era:

And my personal favorite, an extensive gallery of images for the Kshatrya heavy chariot:

Sorry for the double post, but SoG posted while I was preparing mine.

7Ronin & Sword of Geddon re Naval lines: "Junk, JUNK, Bigger Junk, Junk with guns, Ironclad Junk..." considering the extensive use of Dhows and other types of ships in the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea, can I beg you to do a little research on something besides junks?

Blue Monkey said:

7Ronin re Naval lines: "Junk, JUNK, Bigger Junk, Junk with guns, Ironclad Junk..." considering the extensive use of Dhows and other types of ships in the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea, can I beg you to do a little research on something besides junks?

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Certainly! Consider the name as just a "placeholder." I'm hoping that OtM, who has done some research on this, will chime in and save the day.

Also, thanks for the pix.

Blue Monkey said:

7Ronin & Sword of Geddon re Naval lines: "Junk, JUNK, Bigger Junk, Junk with guns, Ironclad Junk..." considering the extensive use of Dhows and other types of ships in the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea, can I beg you to do a little research on something besides junks?

Click to expand...

Well, there's a problem with the term "junk" itself. It's a really broad term referring to just about any East Asian ship or seagoing Southeast Asian vessels. The casual visitor to the Far East at the time didn't know the difference. Malays have djong (where the word "junk" comes from), which were large sea-worthy craft. Their sails are quite different from the ones of Chinese "junks." Chinese word for junks is "chuan." Warships were "fuchuan."

Also there are quite a lot of other categories of ships and there were variations from civilization to civilzation. The Japanese preferred boarding enemy ships. The Chinese both boarded ships or bombarded them from a distance. The Vietnamese used small, light vessels to get close to enemy ships, hurl naptha and then escape. Some were simply oar-powered vessels, confined to the coast or rivers, but there were some that were definitely seagoing or were a hybrid of both (both oars and sails).

@OtM: Other than the imprecision of the word "Junk" how does the Sea Line look to you, having done some thinking on this for your own projects.

Are these acceptable:
War Junk - substitute Fuchuan
Merchant Junk - substitute Chuan
Pirate Junk - substitute Pirate Djong

That looks fine. The way I had it for the "Art of War," which only spans the Shang Dynasty to the eighteenth century, was this way:

China
Naval Transport
Sampan -> Fanchuan -> Baochuan (Treasure Ship)

Naval Warship
Lou Chuan (Castle/Tower Ship) -> War Tiger Paddleship -> Fuchuan

Privateer
Pirate Junk -> Kuai Chuan ("fast ship")

Japan
Naval Transport
Fune -> Light Junk -> Freighter Junk

Naval Warship
Kobaya -> Atakabune -> Tekkousen

Privateer
Pirate Junk -> Wa-ko Junk

Korea
Naval Transport
Sampan -> Shilla Junk -> Mugun

Naval Warship
Kyongtangson -> P'anokson -> Kobukson

Privateer
Pirate Junk -> Kuai Chuan

lets have one line for all countries.
maybe a seperation for india and asia.

I think there should be three lines: one for East Asia, one for Southeast Asia, and one for Indian civs. East Asian and Southeast Asian ships are different from each other. But it's your call, of course.

well you need to remember we need to create graphics for the units, soooo....