Unit Design

Psychic_Llamas

Psychic_Llamas

Wizard in the Making
Joined
Nov 25, 2005
Messages
6,366
Location
Western Australia
Starting a new thread for unit design.

here are my ideas for DE and HE units from before:

here are details of DE unit stats:
Spoiler :

Code: 
All Units Free Promotions:	Druchii (+1 first strike, +1 Movement), Hate Asur (+15% vs Asur, ignores first strikes from Asur)

New Promotion effects:		Druchii:		+1 first strike, +1 Movement)
				Hate Asur: 		+15% vs Asur, ignores first strikes from Asur 
				Subject to Frenzy: 	randomly adds the 'Frenzied' promotion 
				Frenzied:		adds the blitz effect, +20% attack and -20% defence. has a 75% chance of wearing off each turn. the unit is forced to attack any enemy unit near by.
				Ambush:			The unit may cast a new spell called 'stage ambush' 
				Scaly Skin:		+15% Defence
				Stupididty:		Randomly adds the 'Stupid' Promotion. removed after first combat.
				Stupid: 		unit cannot attack.
				Fear:			effect changed to make enemies attacking the unit have a % chance to get -20% strength
				Terror:			Acts as fear does now
				Immune to Psychology:	ignores the effects of fear, terror, stupidity etc.
				Witch Kings Armour:	+25% defence, +50% magic resistance, ignores first strikes. NOT equipment.
				DESTROYER:		(Equipment) if a spellcaster is killed by the wielding unit, the Destroyer will remove a random spell promotion (Aqshy 1, High 3 etc) from the destroyed caster and grant it (and as well as the appropriate channeling promotion) to the wielder. the next spell promotion to do this will remove the previous spell promotion gained in this way.
				AMBER AMULET:		Unit Heals 50% faster in all territories.
				DARK SWORD:		Transferes the 'Feeble' promotion after combat. 
				Feeble:			Unit gets -2 strength perminantly. if strength reaches 0 the unit dies.

New Spell Effects:		Stage Ambush:		Turns the unit invisible (if not already), hidden nationality, lose all movement points, and automatically attack any enemy unit that moves next to them ignoring all defence bonuses. they should get another spell which removes the 'stage ambush' effect.
				Hide:			Turns the unit Invisible and hidden nationality until after first combat.

							Strength	Movement	Elemental Str.	First Strikes	Withdraw %	Transport cap	Promotions				Special			
Ancient					
		
Worker							0		2		-		-		-		-		-					-
Warrior							3		1		-		-		-		-		-					-
Spearman						4		1		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Mounted
Archer							3		1		-		-		-		-		-					+25% City Defence, +25% hill Defence, may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 70% max damage.
Axeman: Naggaryth Blade Fury (UU)			4		1		-		-		10%		-		Subject to Frenzy			+50% vs Melee
Swordman						5		1		-		-		-		-		-					+25% vs Archer
Horseman						5		2		-		-		-		-		-					+25% vs Melee
Catapult: NONE						
Chariot: NONE						
Monster Ia: Dark Pegasus or Helmount			4		3		-		-		-		1		Fly					-
Monster Ib: Arach Rider (UU)				2		2		3 poison	2		-		-		Invisible, Ambush			-
Scout: Naggaryth Scout (UU)				1		2		-		-		-		-		Ambush					+50% vs Animals
Hunter: Druchii Huntsman (UU)				4		2		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Animals, +50% vs Beasts
Hedgewizard: Aspirant					2		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 1, Dark Magic		-
Galley: Death Galley (UU)				2		1		-		-		-		1		-					-	
Trireme: Doom Reaver (UU)				2		2		-		-		-		-		-					+50% v. Galleys	

Age of Magic
Horse-Archer: NONE 
Militia Spearman					6		1		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Mounted					
Militia Archer: NONE replaced by Shade (UU)		3		2		1 poison	-		10%		-		-					May Cast Hide
Ranger: Beastmaster (UU)				7		2		-		-		-		-		Tame Animal, Tame Beast			+100% strength vs beast, +150% vs Animals	
Militia Swordsman: Corsairs (UU)			8		1		-		-		-		-		Boarding Party				May enslave defested units, may capture ships. +25% vs Archer.	
Light Knight: Dark Rider (UU)				8		2		-		-		-		-		Ambush					may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 75% max damage	
Wizard: Sorceress					4		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 2, Dark Magic		-	
Bolt-Thrower: Reaver Bolt Thrower			8		1		-		-		-		-		-					Causes Collateral Damage max 4 units. can bombard city defences.	
War Chariot: Cold One Chariot				7		2		-		1		-		-		Fear, Stupidity, Scaly Skin		+50% vs Infantry, Flanking bonus vs infantry.
Monster IIa: Hydra (UU)					6		1		1 poison/1 fire	-		-		-		Scaly Skin				Causes Collateral Damage max 5 units, no damage limit.	
Monster IIb: Harpies (UU)				5		3		-		-		-		-		Fly					-	
Caravel: Doom Reaver (UU)				2		2		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Galleys	
Sea-monster I: Helldrake (UU)				5		3		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Ships		

Age of Discovery

Royal Guard: Black Guard (UU)				15		1		-		-		-		-		Guardian				+50% City Defence. +25% vs Mounted, +25% vs melee.
Pikemen: Druchii Drannach Warrior			10		1		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Mounted
Longbow: NONE replaced by Druchii Assassin (UU)		9		2		5 poison	2		20%		-		-					Targets Weakest Unit, may Cast Hide
Crossbowman: Druchii Uraithen Warrior (UU)		9		1		-		-		-		-		-					Ignores Defence bonuses. may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 80% max damage. +25% city defence, +25% Hill Defence.
Heavy Knight: Cold One Knights (UU)			15		2		-		-		-		-		-					+25% vs beasts, +50% vs Siege. Flanking bonus vs Siege.
Wizard Lord: High Sorceress				6		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 3, Dark Magic		-
Cannon:NONE Replaced by War Hydra (UUs)			12		1		1 poison/1 fire	-		-		-		Scaly Skin, Breath Fire, Fear		Causes Collateral Damage max 5 units, no damage limit.
Cannon:NONE Replaced by Cold One Pack (UUs)		11		3		-		-		-		-		Fear, Stupidity, Scaly Skin, Blitz	-
Galleon: Death Fortress (UU)				8		3		-		-		-		3		-					enslaves defeated ships
Frigate: Sea Dragon (UU)				6		4		-		-		-		-		-					+50% vs Ships, breath fire.
Religious(Maybe Cult of Khaine as Guild?):	
Witchelves-> (UU)					10		2		2 Poison	-		20%		-		Subject to Frenzy			-
Witchelf Hag (UU)					10		2		4 Poison	-		20%		-		Subject to Frenzy, Canibalize		-
Executioners(Inquisitor) (UU)				14		1		-		-		-		-		-					+100% vs Melee, may remove non state religion.

Mechanical Age
Cavalry: heavey Cold One Knight (UU)			19		2		-		-		-		-		Fear, Stupidity, Scaly Skin		+25% vs beasts, +50% vs Siege. Flanking bonus vs Siege.
Musketman: NONE			
Monster IIIa: Black Dragon (UU)				26		4		-		-		-		-		Terror, Scaly Skin, Breath Fire, Fly	-
Monster IIIb: Black Manticore (UU)			19		2		-		3		30%		1		Fly, Terror				-
Ironclad: Black Ark of Naggaroth (UU)			14		2		-		-		-		7		-					enslaves defeated units (including sea monsters) and turns cargo-> slaves if the ark has empty transport slots)
Uber-Mage: Sorceress Matriarch (UU)			8		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 4, Dark Magic		-			

Heros:
Malekith						12		1		-		-		-		-		Fear, Immune to Psychology, 		If malekith is in a stack with a heavy Cold one Chariot or a Black Dragon, he may cast a spell to mount either of those units. see below for stats.
																			Witch kings Armour, DESTROYER, 		
																			Channeling 1/2/3, Dark Magic		
Morathi							7		3		-		-		20%		-		Fly, Channeling 1/2/3/4, Dark Magic, 	Immune to Magic, spells never fail.
																			AMBER AMULET, DARK SWORD

and Highelf unit details:
Spoiler :

Code: 
All Units Free Promotions:	Asur (+1 first strike, +1 Movement), Elven Enmity (+10% defence vs Druchii, immune to fear/terror vs Druchii)

New Promotion effects:		Asur:			(+1 first strike, +1 Movement)
				Hate Druchii: 		(+15% vs Druchii, ignores first strikes from Druchii)
				Lions Pelt: 		+10% magic resistance.
				Woodsman's Axe: 	Unit is able to cast 3 'spells': Lion Rampant, Lion Leaping, Lion Claw. 
				Scaly Skin:		+15% Defence
				Fear:			effect changed to make enemies attacking the unit have a % chance to get -20% strength
				Terror:			Acts as fear does now
				Immune to Psychology:	ignores the effects of fear, terror, stupidity etc.
				Banner of Avelorn:	Unit may cast the spell 'Banner of Avelorn'	
				Aenarion... Reborn	This unit may cast 'hope' as per FfH. 
				SUNFANG			+3 Holy Strength, +100% vs Daemons.
				DRAGON ARMOUR...	immune to fire, +50% defence
				WAR CROWN OF SAPHERY	all spells have double range and duration. summons last twice as long.
				SWORD OF TECLIS		ignore defence bonus, may cast a one-time spell, 'Unleash Power of Teclis's Sword'

New Spell Effects:		Lion Rampant		Unit gets +1 Defence strength for 1 turn
				Lion Leaping		Unit gets +1 move +1 first strike for 1 turn.
				Lion Claw		Unit gets +1 Attack strength for 1 turn
				Banner of Avelorn	all enemy unit adjacent to the casting unit cannot attack. resistable, 80% chance resistance. only affects living units.
				Unleash Power...	all enemy units within 3 squares of the caster are hit with 20% fire, 20% lightning and 20% Holy, damage. may kill

							Strength	Movement	Elemental Str.	First Strikes	Withdraw %	Transport cap	Promotions					Special			
Ancient					
		
Worker							0		2		-		-		-		-		-						-
Warrior							3		1		-		-		-		-		-						-
Spearman: Asur Spearman (UU)				4		1		-		1		-		-		-						+50% vs Mounted, +5% City Defence
Archer: Asur Archer (UU)				3		1		-		1		-		-		-						+30% City Defence, +25% hill Defence, may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 70% max damage.
Axeman							4		1		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Melee
Swordman						5		1		-		-		-		-		-						+25% vs Archer
Horseman						5		2		-		-		-		-		-						+25% vs Melee
Catapult: Ballista					5		1		-		-		-		-		-						Causes Collateral Damage max 2 units. can bombard city defences.	
Chariot: Tiranoc Chariot (UU)				5		2		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Infantry, Flanking bonus vs infantry.
Monster I: Pegasus					4		3		-		-		-		1		Fly						-
Scout							1		2		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Animals
Hunter							4		2		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Animals
Hedgewizard: Acolyte (UU)				2		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 1, High Magic			-
Galley: Swan Ship (UU)					2		2		-		-		-		1		-						-	
Trireme: Hawk Ship (UU)					2		3		-		-		-		-		-						+50% v. Galleys	

Age of Magic
Horse-Archer: Ellyrian Reavers (UU)			6		2		-		1		10%		-		-						may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 75% max damage	
Militia Spearman (UU)					6		1		-		1		-		-		-						+50% vs Mounted, +10% City Defence					
Militia Archer (UU)					3		2		-		1		-		-		-						+30% City Defence, +25% hill Defence, may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 80% max damage.
Ranger: Shadow Warrior (UU)				7		2		-		-		-		-		Hate Druchii					May cast Hide	
Militia Swordsman					8		1		-		-		-		-		-						+25% vs Archer.	
Light Knight						8		2		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Siege, Flanking bonus vs Siege	
Wizard: Mage (UU)					4		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 2, High Magic			-	
Bolt-Thrower: Repeater Bolt Thrower(UU)			8		1		-		-		-		-		-						Causes Collateral Damage max 4 units. can bombard city defences.	
War Chariot: Chrace War Chariot (UU)			8		2		-		1		-		-		-						+75% vs Infantry, Flanking bonus vs infantry.
Monster II: Great Eagle (UU)				7		3		-		1		-		-		Fly						May make aerial attack (range 3) to 70% max damage.	
Caravel: Eagle Ship (UU)				2		3		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Galleys	
other ship: Griffon Ship (UU)				5		4		-		-		-		-		-						+50% vs Ships		

Age of Discovery

Royal Guard: White Lions (UU)				15		1		-		-		-		-		Guardian, Woodsman 1, Lions Pelt, Woodsmans Axe	-			+50% City Defence. +25% vs Mounted, +50% vs melee.
Pikemen: Sea guard (UU)					10		1		-		-		-		-		Amphibious, Boarding Party			+50% vs Mounted
Longbow: Handmaiden of the Everqueen (UU)		15		1		-		2		-		-		Immune to Psychology, Banner of Avelorn		-
Crossbowman: NONE replaced by Griffon			11		3		-		-		-		-		Fly						Ignores Defence bonuses. may make 'aerial attack' (range 1) to 80% max damage. +25% city defence, +25% Hill Defence.
Heavy Knight: Silver Helms (UU)				15		2		-		-		-		-		-						+25% vs beasts, +50% vs Siege. Flanking bonus vs Siege.
Wizard Lord: High Mage(UU)				6		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 3, High Magic			-
Cannon:Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower (UUs)			12		1		-		-		-		-		-						Causes Collateral Damage max 5 units, no damage limit.
Galleon: Dragon Ship (UU)				8		4		-		-		-		3		-						-
Frigate: Merwyrm (UU)					6		5		-		-		-		-		Magic resistance				+50% vs Beasts
Religious (requires elven gods state religion):	
Swordmasters (UU)					14		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 1, High Magic			+50% vs Archer, +50% vs spellcasters, ignores first strikes
Phoenix Guard (Inquisitor) (UU)				15		1		-		-		-		-		Fire Immunity					may remove non-state religion. +25% City Defence. +25% vs Mounted

Mechanical Age
Cavalry: Dragon Prince (UU)				19		2		-		-		-		-		Immune to Psychology, Standard Bearer				+50% vs beasts, +50% vs Siege. Flanking bonus vs Siege. If in the same stack as an emporor Dragon, may mount to make a Dragon Rider, national limit of 1.
Musketman: NONE			
Monster IIIa: Emperor Dragon (UU)			23		4		-		-		-		1		Terror, Scaly Skin, Breath Fire, Fly		(increase national unit limit to three)
Monster IIIb: Royal Griffon (UU)			20		3		-		-		-		-		Fly						-
Ironclad: Dragon Fleet (UU)				12		6		-		-		-		4		Blitz						-
Uber-Mage: Archmage of Saphery (UU)			8		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 4, High Magic			-			

Heros:
Teclis							7		1		-		-		-		-		Channeling 1/2/3/4, High Magic, 		Immune to Magic, spells never fail.
																			WAR CROWN OF SAPHERY, SWORD OF TECLIS, 		
																				
Tyrion							10		3		-		-		-		-		Aenarion the Defencer Reborn 			-
																			SUNFANG, DRAGON ARMOUR OF AENARION

EDIT: this highelf one is quite rough, i spent much more time on the DE one, so... yeah :p


Ideas comments?

also, any more unit design i would like to be written up in this format. would make life SO much easyer for the guy whos going to be coding it all (ie me :p)
 
Document... so... hard... to... read....

That format is really horrible; it remains unreadable even pasted into word or a text editor.

Dark Elf Thoughts:
Spoiler :
Why create "Druichii" promotion separate from Elven promotion that does the same thing?
They're still all genetically elves, I'd just go with Elf. Useful to keep these the same for things like creating Elven slaves or any other racial effects (like if you really want to keep the ridiculous "fears elves" penalty on goblins).

So you'll be unsurprised that the "hates asur" penalty I think is also a bad idea.

If this is really representing hatred, add an extra diplomacy penalty.
A strength bonus would somehow represent superior tactics or expert knowledge - are dark elves really better at killing high elves than they are at killing humans or greenskins?
And when you end up giving Asur something similar, they mostly cancel out.
And why would Hating Druichii somehow make you immune to first strikes from Druichii? Their arrows bounce off? But not other races arrows?

Forced to attack from frenzied is going to be hard to code, and is going to make the unit pretty useless, since you can't preserve it or stop it from launching suicidal attacks against well-defended units.

I like this version of a mild fear.

If the Witch Kings Armor is on a hero, defensive strength isn't that useful since that just makes the hero more likely to be the stack defender, and so more likely to die. And if the hero *isn't* the stack defender, then the armor is useless . Find some other benefit. How about having it add Stoneskin at the start of each turn?

So, the Dark Sword is designed to be given to suicidal units? Because the only way it will effect the enemy is if they survive the combat - ie if the dark sword unit dies (a -2 strength promotion will only reduce their maximum strength, not their current, damaged strength, so it won't kill units that win the combat but have less than 2 strength after winning).

I am very wary about the "automatic attack" in stage ambush; hard to implement, hard to use.

In your weapon table, you need to make very clear which units you intend to be able to get metal weapon promotions, it is hard to gauge balance without this. I would suggest reducing this generally.

Axemen are such a core unit in this mod that giving them a 50% balance and making them frenzy could be very hard to balance. Interesting, but would need playtesting.

Re: pegasus.
I would like to make many flying units into aircraft, particularly the weak ones. Make them like fighters with strafing run, relocation, and interception.

Make a few of them like bombers (gyrocoptor, etc)

A strength 5 horseman is stronger than normal ancient horsemen.

Do you really want Dark Elves to have 2 monsters at each level? I guess they are monster heavy. So take some other units away maybe? You don't want dark elves to be able to do everything, and fill every unit role, and get every tech.

Ranger replacement is too strong, in particular if it gets metal weapons - standard rangers are currently strength 4 with iron taking it up to 6. Beast/animal bonuses are also too high.

Militia swordsmen UU too strong; currently these are strength 5, 7 with iron weapons. I would remove the archer bonus, its already much better than regular militia swordsmen.

Light cav too strong; currently these are 6/4, up to 8/6 with iron.

Bolt-thrower too strong. Cannons are currently 8/2. Make it 6/2. Siege weapons not an elven strength.

Cold one chariot is a Chariot replacement, not a War Chariot replacement. Currently chariots are strength 5/3, up to 7/5 with metals.

Make harpies a bomber unit.

Pikemen too strong. Pikemen are 7/9 with metals.

Hide on assassins is a BAAD idea. These guys are strong enough already. You should also try to incorporate some of the latest Fall further/planned FFH updates so that Marksmen don't target siege units, ships or equipment.
Also make sure that assassins are lower strength than other units; they shouldn't be able to kill full strength combat units, only ones weakened by combat, bombardment or spells.

I would avoid giving flanking vs siege to knights. Knights are for frontal charges. Leave flanking vs siege to light cavalry units and horse-archers, so that these units aren't obseleted by knights.

Remove war hydra, cold one pack, don't give them units for every slot.

Witch elves, executioner, too strong. +100% vs melee is really bad idea.

Remove cavalry. Black dragon is fine (though too strong here), don't give dragon and manticore.

Strength differences between tiers and standard/elite units should be smaller. Keep in mind the large difference in combat odds given by only a 20% strength advantage; strength 5 beats strength 4 over 70% of the time.

The Dark Elves are still far too strong in general. I would consider increasing their mil production penalty, or hard-code cost increasing some of their units, and removing their ability to do "everything".
Also, with too many units, national capacity limits become a joke; a national cap of 5 "elite" units doesn't really matter when there are 10 different elite units you can build, all with .
The point of national caps is so that the "core" of the army is still made up of basic axemen, swordsmen, spearmen, archers and light cav, and that these never become obselete. You lose this with too many units.

Also, what *weaknesses* should Dark Elves have? Here they seem to do almost everything. No uber-races for elf fans please :)

Otherwise, good. :)


I'll look at High Elves later.
It would help if you adjusted strengths relative to their basic levels as currently coded in the mod, which I think are fairly balanced. As it stands I can't tell whether you intend a unit to be stronger than normal, or whether you just couldn't recall the existing unit strength.
 
As a note before i relpy to your post, i forgot to mention the statistics are from unit stats not based on those units already in the game, this was a proposal for redoing the whole unit lines... also i apologise im increadibly tired :p


Document... so... hard... to... read....

That format is really horrible; it remains unreadable even pasted into word or a text editor.
Click to expand...

yeh its not great if its in word but thats the easyest way i could put it onto the forums (ie using ntepad)

They're still all genetically elves, I'd just go with Elf. Useful to keep these the same for things like creating Elven slaves or any other racial effects (like if you really want to keep the ridiculous "fears elves" penalty on goblins).

So you'll be unsurprised that the "hates asur" penalty I think is also a bad idea.
Click to expand...

true about the elf promo.

regarding fear and hate. those are 2 VERY important rules in warhammer (tabletop game) and i couldnt think of any other way of implementing them. Hate represents a units increased desire to destroy the enemy, increasing their frenzy etc...

Forced to attack from frenzied is going to be hard to code.
Click to expand...

yeh it will be hard to code.

and is going to make the unit pretty useless, since you can't preserve it or stop it from launching suicidal attacks against well-defended units
Click to expand...

thats the whole point... but your probably right :p

If the Witch Kings Armor is on a hero, defensive strength isn't that useful since that just makes the hero more likely to be the stack defender, and so more likely to die. And if the hero *isn't* the stack defender, then the armor is useless . Find some other benefit. How about having it add Stoneskin at the start of each turn?
Click to expand...

didnt even think of that tbh lol

So, the Dark Sword is designed to be given to suicidal units? Because the only way it will effect the enemy is if they survive the combat - ie if the dark sword unit dies (a -2 strength promotion will only reduce their maximum strength, not their current, damaged strength, so it won't kill units that win the combat but have less than 2 strength after winning).
Click to expand...

again i didnt think of that. any other suggestions? (as a side note trying to port items from the rulebooks to civ, keep the flavour and make them work with the civ mechanics is a royal pain in the arse...)

I am very wary about the "automatic attack" in stage ambush; hard to implement, hard to use.
Click to expand...

i dont think it will be that hard to code with python.

In your weapon table, you need to make very clear which units you intend to be able to get metal weapon promotions, it is hard to gauge balance without this. I would suggest reducing this generally.
Click to expand...

will do in the revised table :)

Re: pegasus.
I would like to make many flying units into aircraft, particularly the weak ones. Make them like fighters with strafing run, relocation, and interception.

Make a few of them like bombers (gyrocoptor, etc)
Click to expand...

hmmm not a fan of the idea. dragons and bigger monsters wouldnt work well as aircraft methinks...

Do you really want Dark Elves to have 2 monsters at each level?
Click to expand...

yep.

I guess they are monster heavy. So take some other units away maybe? You don't want dark elves to be able to do everything, and fill every unit role, and get every tech.
Click to expand...

not take them away as such, more make the others not as appealing as monsters. DE core units will be Monsters, recon and ships (as well as melee)



i redo the list with the suggestions u posted and come back later :p
 
regarding fear and hate. those are 2 VERY important rules in warhammer (tabletop game) and i couldnt think of any other way of implementing them. Hate represents a units increased desire to destroy the enemy, increasing their frenzy etc...
Click to expand...

It sounds like a really stupid rule really.... why should a goblin army be inherently weaker vs elves? It messes up game balance. If they're balanced vs humans, they're too weak vs elves. If they're balanced vs elves, they're too strong vs humans.
If you really want to keep the promotions for flavor, how about:
Hates X, gains +10% strength vs X, -10% withdrawal chance vs X.
10% strength is a pretty small difference.

thats the whole point... but your probably right
Click to expand...

Part of the difficulty in designing a frenzy mechanic that frenzy inherently implies losing control, but losing control of your units in any game is a Not Fun mechanic. How about a frenzied unit loses all first strikes, loses all withdrawal chance, gains +20% attack strength, -50% defence strength. This represents the unit charging forward heedless of its own survival - it doesn't stop to use a bow first.
Another alternative; give them a strength penalty vs archery units (mad charges against archers get you cut down in open ground).

again i didnt think of that. any other suggestions? (as a side note trying to port items from the rulebooks to civ, keep the flavour and make them work with the civ mechanics is a royal pain in the arse...)
Click to expand...

Understood. If you can post something about the intended flavor, then I can try to come up with workable mechanic effects.
If the dark sword is supposed to have some kind of enervatnig effect, how about you have it remove 1xp (maybe with some probability if too strong) from every unit in the same stack as a unit attacked by the wielder of the sword, and give +1xp to the wielder from combat. Probably too strong.

hmmm not a fan of the idea. dragons and bigger monsters wouldnt work well as aircraft methinks...
Click to expand...

Not *all* flying monsters need to be aircraft. But the AI understands aircraft well, and so its a shame to not use these. This is one of the missing things from FFH.

Remember that there is a difference between the "Interception mission" that fighter aircraft have and the "Intercepts aircraft" like that on SAM troopers.

My design would be this; weak units like pegasai, chaos furies become fighter aircraft units. This keeps them valuable even after the point that their 5 strength becomes useless in combat

Medium flying units like the gyrocoptor and maybe harpies can become bombers, that can do collateral damage and can bombard city defences.

Strong flying monsters like dragons, griffons, manticores, djinni or flying carpet knights should just remain non-aircraft attack unit monsters that have the flying promotion to let them avoid terrain costs and fly over mountains and oceans and such. These units should also be immune to river-crossing/amphibious landing penalties, and should have a SAM-trooper style intercept ability (hard for a gyrocoptor to bomb an army that has a dragon on it).

You could also add a 5-10% intercept ability to archer units.

more make the others not as appealing as monsters
Click to expand...

Ok, several ways you could do this.
Increase the general milproduction penalty.
Increase the hammer costs of non-monster UUs.
Make a UB breeding pit building that is better than standard (higher xp bonus? available at the first monster tech rather than the second?).
Remove their ability to access many techs and unit types; no cannons, no steel, no advanced engineering, no rifling, no flight, no banking, no mercantilism etc.
Weaken their cavalry; give all their cavalry -1 attack strength.
Take knights away from them. Make Dark Riders ancient cavalry, and Cold Ones light cavalry.
Take War Chariots away from them.
Make them vulnerable to some unit type; either cavalry (take away spearmen, pikemen) or archers.
 
High elves thoughts:

Spoiler :
Lion Rampant/leaping/claw pretty boring if they only last 1 turn each. They all do basically the same thing, but you can only cast one each. At the least, give them say a 50% chance of wearing off each turn, so that what you want to do is alternate through them to hopefully have multiple promotions at a time.

I'm going to ignore all the strengths for these units since they clearly are not based on the current balance (which I think is pretty good).
This formatting also doesn't allow for different attack/defence strengths, which is irritating.

Would be nice to make the ballista different from a catapult. Maybe give the ballista half the city defence bombardment of a catapult, but let it bombard units up to 25% strength damage rather than 20%.

Chariots and war chariots don't feel very elveny. I'd stick to cavalry instead.

Give them a griffon or an eagle, not both.
Remove cannon. They have weak siege; they can get a ballista (catapult replacement) and an Eagle Claw (boltthrower/trebuchet replacement).

Remove royal griffon. A dragon is enough (more than enough!).
Remove cavalry UU.

Again you need to think about strengths and weaknesses; once again, High Elves do everything. They have strong units in every slot, and have no particular weaknesses. What do high elves do best? What do they do less well? What are they vulnerable to?

There are several units that seem to duplicate functions of other units. While I understand wanting to throw in every tabletop unit that exists, this is poor design because it a) increases the art requirements, b) clogs up the tech tree and faction design, c) gives too many elite units and d) means that this faction will have many more different units than other factions with less canon.
So, do you really need both Ellyrian Reavers *and* light knights? Do you really need both Silverhelms *and* Dragon Princes?

Think about tech trees. Most factions should be able to get roughly the same number of techs.
For elves, they have wide access to magic, good access to monsters, good access to knights, good (non-gunpowder), naval units, good access to education (literacy, education).
BUT: no access to gunpowder (canons, rifling etc), poor access to technology (Advanced engineering, imperical roads, steel, steam power), no access to chaos techs, poor access to high level commerce (banking, mercantilism etc.).

For civilised (Empire, Tilea, Estalia, Cathay, Nippon, etc.) factions they have: some access to magic, weak access to monsters, good access to technology, full access to high level commerce, no access to chaos, good access to knights, good access to education, good access to navy.

For chaos civs, they have: poor access to magic, full access to chaos/chaos magic, some access to monsters (demons included in chaos), poor access to technology, no access to high level commerce, poor access to education.

Greenskins are tech challenged. They need better upper-mid level units, but poor access beyond that. They are strong in early and midgame, but weak endgame. Poor access to magic, poor access to technology, good access to monsters, no access to chaos, no access to high level commerce, no access to education, poor access to navy.

Undead civs need some undead-unique techs. They have: access to necromancy, poor technology access, poor non-necromancy magic access, medium monster access, no high commerce access, education access?, medium navy access.

etc.

These kind of guidelines should affect which techs a faction can access and so what kinds of special units they can get. Don't give every faction a replacement for every unit.
 
@PL, I agree with Ahriman, just becasue there is a unit or ability on the tabletop doesnt mean it has to be used. I have found that translating tabletop to civ is nigh impossible if you want balence. (I tried translating Warhammer Ancient Battles to Civ, it failed badly.) Also, just because a unit is really cool, it doesnt have to added. In the mod I am working on based on the Larry Niven Sci-Fi books, I would love to have Jinxian Warliners for the ARM, but I cant figure out how to make them unique or useful enough to be worthwhile from the regular Warliner. I appologize if I overstepping my bounds or something, but the Elven factions are already the best fleshed out factions there are. The current unit system seems just fine, it has been worked on over the past 2 years and feels good. Some other factions should get more fleshed out before the Elves are revisited. The KIS priniple is sort of nice here. (Keep It Simple)
 
Dont remember the Moties, but the race that is needed are the Puppeteers, (Ringworld anyone?).
Back on topic: I would like to see the eastern civs a viable choice to play.
 
for undead maybe more udead teach no cannon no monster, in place of cannon for navy a undead ship. in place of land cannon a spell. in place of monster have Zombie Dragon.

I never saw a cannon or monster placed on a tabletop on the undead side.

weaken all undead units and give them Fear, mabye lower cost a little (they will need 1.5 to 2 X as many to defend with. also make it so "undead" units have no upkeep. make Necromancers stronger than other mages in Str but raise their cost. (Necros and every undead caster is incredibly expensive but can outmatch another mage in sword to sword.)

undead without Fear has very weak units + very strong at melee casters. I say make the undead players use there casters as melee tanks. with alot of cannonfodder units that make the opponent run 50-75% of the time. (50% Fear 75% Terror) (playing undead on tabletop you have to get your casters dirty if you don't you lose.)
 
Dont remember the Moties
Click to expand...

Moties are from A Mote in God's Eye, which Niven co-wrote with Jerry Pournelle.

Quite possibly the finest Scifi novel ever written, after maybe Dune.

Back on topic: I would like to see the eastern civs a viable choice to play.
Click to expand...

Then make some comments on the design suggestions...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290972

As for undead; they've barely been started yet.
 
Part of the difficulty in designing a frenzy mechanic that frenzy inherently implies losing control, but losing control of your units in any game is a Not Fun mechanic. How about a frenzied unit loses all first strikes, loses all withdrawal chance, gains +20% attack strength, -50% defence strength. This represents the unit charging forward heedless of its own survival - it doesn't stop to use a bow first.
Another alternative; give them a strength penalty vs archery units (mad charges against archers get you cut down in open ground).
Click to expand...

the loss of first strikes nad withdrawl chance is a good idea.

If the dark sword is supposed to have some kind of enervatnig effect, how about you have it remove 1xp (maybe with some probability if too strong) from every unit in the same stack as a unit attacked by the wielder of the sword, and give +1xp to the wielder from combat. Probably too strong.
Click to expand...

could be be cool...

My design would be this; weak units like pegasai, chaos furies become fighter aircraft units. This keeps them valuable even after the point that their 5 strength becomes useless in combat

Medium flying units like the gyrocoptor and maybe harpies can become bombers, that can do collateral damage and can bombard city defences.

Strong flying monsters like dragons, griffons, manticores, djinni or flying carpet knights should just remain non-aircraft attack unit monsters that have the flying promotion to let them avoid terrain costs and fly over mountains and oceans and such. These units should also be immune to river-crossing/amphibious landing penalties, and should have a SAM-trooper style intercept ability (hard for a gyrocoptor to bomb an army that has a dragon on it).

You could also add a 5-10% intercept ability to archer units.
Click to expand...

ok you got me, thats a great idea :p

Ok, several ways you could do this.
Increase the general milproduction penalty.
Increase the hammer costs of non-monster UUs.
Make a UB breeding pit building that is better than standard (higher xp bonus? available at the first monster tech rather than the second?).
Remove their ability to access many techs and unit types; no cannons, no steel, no advanced engineering, no rifling, no flight, no banking, no mercantilism etc.
Weaken their cavalry; give all their cavalry -1 attack strength.
Take knights away from them. Make Dark Riders ancient cavalry, and Cold Ones light cavalry.
Take War Chariots away from them.
Make them vulnerable to some unit type; either cavalry (take away spearmen, pikemen) or archers.
Click to expand...

cool, ill have another try with the DE sometime today (ill do it in excel, might be easyer to read)
 
@PL, I agree with Ahriman, just becasue there is a unit or ability on the tabletop doesnt mean it has to be used. I have found that translating tabletop to civ is nigh impossible if you want balence. (I tried translating Warhammer Ancient Battles to Civ, it failed badly.) Also, just because a unit is really cool, it doesnt have to added. In the mod I am working on based on the Larry Niven Sci-Fi books, I would love to have Jinxian Warliners for the ARM, but I cant figure out how to make them unique or useful enough to be worthwhile from the regular Warliner. I appologize if I overstepping my bounds or something, but the Elven factions are already the best fleshed out factions there are. The current unit system seems just fine, it has been worked on over the past 2 years and feels good. Some other factions should get more fleshed out before the Elves are revisited. The KIS priniple is sort of nice here. (Keep It Simple)
Click to expand...

your not overstepping any boundaries at all :) thanks for the input.

ill redo the list based on current unit strengths and on the suggestions Ahriman has said, and your right that some units shouldnt be used as UUs
 
@Ahriman: I havent read A Mote in Gods Eye. I'll get to it once Im done with the Fred Saberhagen books that I got at a garage sale.
@ PL: I agree that the Elves are too good at everything. I dont know the warhammer universe very well but it has always been to me that the elves are weak at nothing but outclassed in numbers. Anyone fighting them uses the Stalin principle (Quantity, not quality). Perhaps increasing unit costs by more? In addition, I dont think the elves should be bad against cavalry and archers (In most fantasy books Ive read, thats what the elves excell at) and possibly have a small negative vs infantry? Beeing really graceful wont help you when an axe just hit your shield and are about to be killed by a sword in the off hand.

Sorry for the essay and hijacking your thread PL.
 
Perhaps increasing unit costs by more?
Click to expand...

The easiest way to achieve this is either through
a) increased mil production penalty or
b) add +1gold support costs per unit to most elven units (or most units above tier1).

in addition, I dont think the elves should be bad against cavalry and archers
Click to expand...

Remember the difference between high elves and dark elves. High elves are are about archers and cavalry. Dark elves are about melee and monsters.
 
The reason I suggested incresed cost is that the elves are not unwarlike, as a military preoduction penalty might suggest, but that elves dont repreoduce very fast.

Oops, I thought it was the High elves. Agree that whatever the High Elves are bad at the Dark Elves should be good at. The Dark Elves are the antithesis of the High Elves so it might make sense that their militaries are completly opposite.
 
The reason I suggested incresed cost is that the elves are not unwarlike, as a military preoduction penalty might suggest, but that elves dont repreoduce very fast.
Click to expand...

Decreased production for military units has basically the same effect as increasing hammer costs for all units, but requires only one code change rather than a separate one for every individual unit. Simplicity = win.
 
Okay. Just an idea, is it possible to have the decreased production modifier only effect certaint units because it doesnt seem right that a ship would be build slower because it is a ship. If this is impossible or require too much coding, ignore it.
 
Arguably, Elven ships could be more powerful (some first strike chances, perhaps) and more expensive. I assume that this design feature carries over into naval units (I know nothing about Man'O'War).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
[Complex] (7-60) Add keyboard shortcut to pick unit promotions as AI would
Replies
5
Views
251
PhilMyBelly
PhilMyBelly
S
  • Locked
  • Poll
[Vote] (5-83) Re-Proposal: Addition of Galley Unit, Adjustment to Naval Ships
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
pineappledan
pineappledan
Tekamthi
Proposal workshop: unit stacking ideas
5 6 7
Replies
139
Views
5K
epicivfreak
E
planetfall
Is civ6 too boring? Tweak it and then tweak it some more
Replies
9
Views
1K
planetfall
planetfall
Tekamthi
Supply-Abstracted Healing
Replies
10
Views
884
Tekamthi
Tekamthi
Top Bottom