[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

Is the 3 more civs rule set into stone?
If there is good leader graphic, why don't add all 4 or 5 popular candidates from colonialfan's list?

IMO SaibotLieh's female leader works great for the Shoshone (with different background of course)
The early version of the Hiawatha leaderhead seems perfect for the Pawnee
While Capo's Cochise leaderhead is also great for the Comanche
The Toromona will work great with that LH
I also really like the idea of a southern Central-American civ, and the LH fits the Guaymi perfectly

So, personally I would like to see all these 5 civs, to a total of 26 natives:
Shoshone, Comanche and Pawnee from the north
Guaymi from central
Toromona from south america

AbsintheRed said:

Is the 3 more civs rule set into stone?

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That is what we have agreed to.
(Even that was a compromise.)

There will not be any more than that, sorry.
(24 Native Nations in total is enough.)

Please accept the team's decision to that.
(In modmods everybody will be free to do whatever he likes.)

Fair enough
I just thought that at least the Guaymi would be nice, as you lack of central american civ
There are not many good candidates, and they are from a fairly different area, also fairly distinct from the directly mesoamerican civs
Anyway, 3 civs it is

Hm, It is not easy to find a leaderhead that fits with the new tribes. I made an extensive research in the last days but did not find a better leaderhead.

I can understand ray...

Did we already make a decision which tribes shall be implemented?

I would prefer Shoshone and Pawnee in the North ...

Schmiddie said:

Did we already make a decision which tribes shall be implemented?

I would prefer Shoshone and Pawnee in the North ...

Click to expand...

No real "decision", but 10 days ago I had suggested this:

raystuttgart said:

Shoshone (North), leaderhead
Commanche (North), leaderhead
Toromona ( South), leaderhead

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Nobody objected and I think colonialfan is already preparing these Native Nations.

The Pawnee and the Guaymi can always be added as extra civs though
There is already fairly good suggested LH graphic for them
Also, a native civ have only a few unit types, and all of these civs have only one LH
So the additional graphic is minimal, thus a few more native civs won't have any significant impact on the game peformance

I respect your team decision if you guys are totally against adding more civs
But I myself don't really see any reasons not to add at least these 2 natives
LHs are at least ok for them, and they fit perfectly geographically, just look at colonialfan's map

colonialfan said:

Absinthered,

Thank you for your post on the Chachapoya, the information was very interesting.
I briefly considered this civ, but decided against them in the end, due to two points. Firstly, they were conquered by the Inca, in the second half of the 15th century, before the Spanish arrived, and so were a subjucated people under Inca rule by the time Pizzaro and the conquistadores entered Peru. Secondly, we already had the Inca and Shuar civs in that area. If you are playing on a fictional map, this does not apply and is no problem, but if you are playing on a historical map, it might make things a little crowded. I know we have several civs in smaller areas like in Meso-America, but ideally I would like to have at least one tribe in the major geographical regions on each continent.

Like the Mapulche, the Chachapoya are certainly a future civ to consider, and both these civs would be great to pursue if someone was interested in making a South American Mod.

If you come across any other civs you think might be useful or appropriate, please feel free to mention them, the team is always open to suggestions.

Click to expand...

Guess I was the biased person quoted in the original post. But a few things factually inaccurate here. The Chachapoya were in fact still around when the Spanish came. They were among the people that helped in the conquest of the Inca.

In fact there have been Spanish Wares found in Chachapoyan cities and among bodies. The Chachapoya were historic rivals of the Inca but were a more Northern Civ and also had Amazonian territory so they would encompass more of the map.

The Chachapoya are believed to have succumbed to disease and then a final purge by their historic enemies. There is folklore about how after the diseases came a great priest/witch came and destroyed their cities and there is evidence of massive fires being set to Chachapoyan cities after the Spanish Arrival.

I also suggested a Comanche Civ a long time ago on the Suggest a Civ thread:

Not sure if this is the proper place to put it but I will post it here too if it can be made of any use:

Comanche info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche
Extent of control, power, territory of Comanche http://oieahc.wm.edu/wmq/Apr10/hamalainen.html
Timeline of Comanche History http://www.comanchelanguage.org/Comanche Timeline.htm

Civilization: Comancheria
Leader: Quanah Parker


Unique Ability: Comanche MoonEvery unit killed gives a set amount of gold (Stacks with Honor abilities). Pillaging a luxury resource gives you that luxury's bonuses for a set period of time or until resource is fixed.

Unique Building: River Camp (replaces Stable): +20% (+5%) Mounted unit production, Mounted units start with 15 exp (+15), Pastures provide +1 Production and +10% Defense bonuses.

Unique Unit: Comanche Raider (Replaces Horseman) 11 str (-1) , +5 (+1) movement. Promotion Tu Motso: Every strategic resource pillaged adds +1 strength to your units who use that resource for up to 35 turns (or if the resource is fixed)

AbsintheRed said:

The Pawnee and the Guaymi can always be added as extra civs though
There is already fairly good suggested LH graphic for them
Also, a native civ have only a few unit types, and all of these civs have only one LH
So the additional graphic is minimal, thus a few more native civs won't have any significant impact on the game peformance

I respect your team decision if you guys are totally against adding more civs
But I myself don't really see any reasons not to add at least these 2 natives
LHs are at least ok for them, and they fit perfectly geographically, just look at colonialfan's map

Click to expand...

Hi,

please believe me that I also like additional native civs, but it IS a lot of graphic work to do. I will need approx between one and two days / a weekend to create the graphics (ingame unit graphics, buttons, flags, civ color and maybe city style) for two new nations, if the graphics shall have a propper look (what I always want to), be unique and fit with the other unit graphic styles. When we create a new native nation the graphics should look a little bit different to the other nation graphics. This needs some time to do...

Therefore I'm completely against further new native nations after we have implemented the last 3 new native nations we currently talk about.

Schmiddie said:

This needs some time to do...

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And not only graphics ...

The XML for new Native Nations in Religion and Revolution is incredibly complex compared to Vanilla.

Nationspecific balancing (Leaderheads, Traits, Behaviour with special features like "Native Raids", ...)
Setting up XML for nationspecific sounds and nationspecific graphics.
All the Diplomacy-Texts.
All the Colopedia.
...

But it is not only about the efforts.
Also, there are all the problems I have already listed many many times.
(No good leaderheads, performance, balancing, screens, need to start working on maps and scenarios, ...)

We have more than doubled the number of Native Nations from TAC (11 -> 24).
After we have finished the last 3 currently in work, it is enough.
Even these last 3 were already a compromise ...

At least 2 members of the team (Schmiddie and myself) have expressed, that they are totally against adding more.
(Even 1 veto would have been enough to stop this, but we have 2.)

We know what we are talking about.

Seriously, this discussions about adding even more in this mod ends here.
(Again, anybody can do whatever he likes im modmods. )

raystuttgart said:

The XML for new Native Nations in Religion and Revolution is incredibly complex compared to Vanilla.

Nationspecific balancing (Leaderheads, Traits, Behaviour with special features like "Native Raids", ...)
Setting up XML for nationspecific sounds and nationspecific graphics.
All the Diplomacy-Texts.
All the Colopedia.

Click to expand...

Ummm...
As you know, I'm not a lurker here, I'm a fellow modder
So this is kinda insulting...
We both know that setting up all those XML's is still incredibly easy
I'm modding Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations mods, especially RFC Europe, which is probably even more complex, so actually I'm quite experienced in all those things you listed

Anyway, I would be very much willing to do the work (both XML and python if needed) for the extra nations - or even all the native nations
But I guess this makes no difference, as I don't really think the real reason is the actual XML work

But it is not only about the efforts.
Also, there are all the problems I have already listed many many times.
(No good leaderheads, performance, balancing, screens, need to start working on maps and scenarios, ...)

Click to expand...

You guys already found 2 good leaderheads for those civs, and as I said, there are basically no performance issues when adding a couple more native nations
Just run a few speed tests if you don't beleive me. The extra graphic for a single civ in Colonization is so much smaller than for a civ in BtS, that the difference in performance will be insignificant.
I'm not sure what other balancing is needed other than the XML settings, but at top there may be a couple additional python settings, so I don't really beleive it's that much work either...

Sry if I sounded harsh in my response, but I really don't get your reasons, ray

Schmiddie said:

Hi,

please believe me that I also like additional native civs, but it IS a lot of graphic work to do. I will need approx between one and two days / a weekend to create the graphics (ingame unit graphics, buttons, flags, civ color and maybe city style) for two new nations, if the graphics shall have a propper look (what I always want to), be unique and fit with the other unit graphic styles. When we create a new native nation the graphics should look a little bit different to the other nation graphics. This needs some time to do...

Therefore I'm completely against further new native nations after we have implemented the last 3 new native nations we currently talk about.

Click to expand...

On the other hand I perfectly understand this, creating additional graphics could be a LOT of extra work
I'm not really capable of doing it, and I very much appreciate all the work already done by Schmiddie.
It's great that you have a graphic modder directly for the mod, unfortunately it's a rare privilage in Civ IV modding nowadays

Anyway, as I said, I respect if this is the team's decision, even if I don't really agree with the reasoning behind it

EDIT:

(Again, anybody can do whatever he likes im modmods. )

Click to expand...

Hmm, maybe this could work
Schmiddie, would you be interested in creating additional native graphics a little later?
After the first few steps of the mod are already in place, and you don't have this much work to do with it
If colonialfan is also interested, we can create those additional civs in the same quality and same style as all the other ones...

AbsintheRed said:

We both know that setting up all those XML's is still incredibly easy

Click to expand...

It is not the XML itself, it is creating a good balancing of Leaderheads and Civs.
(You really do not know the details, how this is working in TAC and RaR.)

AbsintheRed said:

The extra graphic for a single civ in Colonization is so much smaller than for a civ in BtS, that the difference in performance will be insignificant.

Click to expand...

I am also thinking a little bit ahead.
We will add massive amounts of further graphics also for upcoming releases.

We already do have slight performance issues because of all the graphics in this mod.

AbsintheRed said:

I'm not sure what other balancing is needed other than the XML settings, ...

Click to expand...

Geographically correct placement of Natives for example ...
(A feature you probably do not know yet.)

Also, I would really like to have work on maps and scenarios start after Release 1.

AbsintheRed said:

Sorry if I sounded harsh in my response, but I really don't get your reasons, ray

Click to expand...

Ok.

AbsintheRed said:

Anyway, as I said, I respect if this is the team's decision, even if I don't really agree with the reasoning behind it.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

AbsintheRed said:

Schmiddie, would you be interested in creating additional native graphics a little later?
After the first few steps of the mod are already in place, and you don't have this much work to do with it
If colonialfan is also interested, we can create those additional civs in the same quality and same style as all the other ones...

Click to expand...

I am really not sure, what this discussion is about.

I haven't seen one post of a team member, that says "Guys, please let us implement more Native Nations after these 3."
Also, there were internal discussions, that said "It is enough, please let us focus on other things again."

If Schmiddie for example, would pick up discussion and said "I really want to do more graphics for Natives." I would be willing to discuss this again.

Also one of our major rules in this mod is the following:

Only one veto from one team member will stop implementation of a feature.
(But we do have 2 vetos.)

Again, in ModMods everybody can do whatever he likes.

AbsintheRed said:

Hmm, maybe this could work
Schmiddie, would you be interested in creating additional native graphics a little later?
After the first few steps of the mod are already in place, and you don't have this much work to do with it
If colonialfan is also interested, we can create those additional civs in the same quality and same style as all the other ones...

Click to expand...

raystuttgart said:

I am really not sure, what this discussion is about.

I haven't seen one post of a team member, that says "Guys, please let us implement more Native Nations after these 3."
Also, there were internal discussions, that said "It is enough, please let us focus on other things again."

If Schmiddie for example, would pick up discussion and said "I really want to do more graphics for Natives." I would be willing to discuss this again.

Also one of our major rules in this mod is the following:

Only one veto from one team member will stop implementation of a feature.
(But we do have 2 vetos.)

Again, in ModMods everybody can do whatever he likes.

Click to expand...

I was talking about a future modmod, like you suggested

Hmm, maybe this could work
Schmiddie, would you be interested in creating additional native graphics a little later?
After the first few steps of the mod are already in place, and you don't have this much work to do with it
If colonialfan is also interested, we can create those additional civs in the same quality and same style as all the other ones...

Click to expand...

Hehe, we can bring this discussion directly to an end:

Maybe I'm interested in in 1 or two years. After the next few months after the most graphic work for release 1 should be done (hopefully in May 2012) I will be very busy due to job-related reasons. I will completely have to stop my work for this mod between June 2012 and October 2012.

Schmiddie said:

Hehe, we can bring this discussion directly to an end:

Click to expand...

It already was at its end.
(At least considering the main mod.)

Also, please let us not discuss plans for modmods in the main threads / forum of Religion and Revolution.
(I really do not want to mix discussion of development of the main mod with discussions about modmods.)

It is even much too early to do so now, because we still have a long way to go.
Release 1 will only be the start.
There are still massive amounts of features and changes coming up after that.

Gucumatz said:

Guess I was the biased person quoted in the original post. But a few things factually inaccurate here. The Chachapoya were in fact still around when the Spanish came. They were among the people that helped in the conquest of the Inca.

In fact there have been Spanish Wares found in Chachapoyan cities and among bodies. The Chachapoya were historic rivals of the Inca but were a more Northern Civ and also had Amazonian territory so they would encompass more of the map.

The Chachapoya are believed to have succumbed to disease and then a final purge by their historic enemies. There is folklore about how after the diseases came a great priest/witch came and destroyed their cities and there is evidence of massive fires being set to Chachapoyan cities after the Spanish Arrival.

Click to expand...

Hi Gucumatz,

Thank you for your response. Though I am a little confused about what you believe to be factually inaccurate. I do not believe my comments alluded to the Chachapoya being extinct by the time the Spanish arrived. If my meaning was unclear I apologise. They were by no means extinct but they were if not a largely conquered and subjugated people under the Inca, were a vassal state to the Inca, very much like the Totonac were under the Aztec, or the Irish under the English, etc., etc.

You are absolutely right that they helped the Spanish bring about the demise of the Inca (the enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing), just like the people subjugated by the Aztec aided Cortez some twenty years earlier. I've also heard of Spanish wares being found in Chachapoyan cities, but that is not surprising as the Spanish occupied Chachapoya territory after they had defeated the Inca. Ultimately the Chachapoya just traded Inca overlords for Spanish ones.

As for folklore story about the witch, I do not recall coming across that, but it sounds quite intriguing.

Ultimately I still stick to my original reasoning for not including the Chachapoya. Although for a Modmod they might be an interesting option.

Thank you for your info on the Comanche, as always any input and assistance from others members of the forum is greatly appreciated.

Hi Schmiddie & Ray.

Are we going with the Pawnee or Comanche? I know Schmiddie wanted the Pawnee, and I have the infomation for both the Pawnee and Comanche collected, I just need to condense, edit and type it out into a few pertinent paragraphs.

The biographical info for the Shoshone and Toromona is all set, so just let me know what the final civ is and I'll have them to you by the weekend.

colonialfan said:

Are we going with the Pawnee or Comanche?

Click to expand...

I would prefer Comanche, because the leaderhead would fit a bit better to my opinion.
But if you 2 (colonialfan and Schmiddie) prefer Pawnee, that is ok for me, too.

Hm, not easy...I could live with Comanche (but I prefer Pawnee).

The leaderhead is a good point for Comanche...hm... I don't know

What would be the leaderhead for the Pawnee?

colonialfan said:

Hi Gucumatz,

Thank you for your response. Though I am a little confused about what you believe to be factually inaccurate. I do not believe my comments alluded to the Chachapoya being extinct by the time the Spanish arrived. If my meaning was unclear I apologise. They were by no means extinct but they were if not a largely conquered and subjugated people under the Inca, were a vassal state to the Inca, very much like the Totonac were under the Aztec, or the Irish under the English, etc., etc.

You are absolutely right that they helped the Spanish bring about the demise of the Inca (the enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing), just like the people subjugated by the Aztec aided Cortez some twenty years earlier. I've also heard of Spanish wares being found in Chachapoyan cities, but that is not surprising as the Spanish occupied Chachapoya territory after they had defeated the Inca. Ultimately the Chachapoya just traded Inca overlords for Spanish ones.

As for folklore story about the witch, I do not recall coming across that, but it sounds quite intriguing.

Ultimately I still stick to my original reasoning for not including the Chachapoya. Although for a Modmod they might be an interesting option.

Thank you for your info on the Comanche, as always any input and assistance from others members of the forum is greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Ah I see, I misunderstood then. But still. Only the southern portion of the Chachapoya was conquered by the Inca ever. (The Chachabomba region) The Northern cities were never conquered by the Inca.

In fact the Northern Chachapoya (Which was home to the most populous and most famous Chachapoya cities, including Kuelap) were not conquered by the Inca. In fact their confederation survived a good 40 years past the Inca demise. And the region which was conquered by the Inca fell under rebellion so many times that it actually fell out of Inca control many times and had to be reconquered. The Northern Chachapoya were never vassals of the Inca

Kind of like how the Northern Maya cities were vassals of Teotihuacan and the Itza, but the majority of the south never was. A common misconception of the Chachapoya in fact.