[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

SaibotLieh already created an amazing

You can say that again.:D

@colonialfan:
Maybe you already have a suggestion for a Native Civ and a Leader in mind?

I thought you might ask. ;) The leaderhead would be most appropriate for North America. If you wanted to use it for Central or South America, it would need a big overhual; clothes, hair, background etc. With that being said, I think a close North American match would be something like the Blackfoot or Crow tribes. I considered a few others like Cree and Seminole, but I kept coming back to the Blackfoot and Crow for a few reasons.

1. No work would need to be done with the leaderhead.
2. Both tribes had prominent females who were either chiefs or warriors, making the bio on them easier, and more important historically accurate. (I don't want to create a fictional person.)
3. Geography. It is likely our map size is not going to get any bigger than gigantic and we already have quite a few tribes spread across the map. If you are playing on a historical map, I personally wouldn't like to see tribes stacked upon each other in small spaces, or tribes moved to areas where they traditionally were not. There is still quite a large part of Canada/northern US, (west of the great lakes) that is free and would be historically consistent with the placement of these two tribes.

As I said:
It is just about possibilites ... no decision made yet. ;)

Wise call. Lets not get ahead of ourselves before Realease 1 is all done and dusted.
 
Crow sounds nice to me
Does the Blackfoot have a more native sounding tribe name?
 
Siksikáwa - "Blackfoot people"

But they were not a very significant tribe. Frankly, this mod has enough natives. Improving Native AI performance can create more fun for player than adding even more Natives.:crazyeye::dunno:
 
Improving Native AI performance can create more fun for player than adding even more Natives.:crazyeye::dunno:

One does not exclude the other. :)
But as I said, this is only about possibilities for the future. :thumbsup:
 
The new one could also be an alternative for ...the Shoshone?

Possible of course.

But I really don't know what you have about that leaderhead. :dunno:
It does not look that bad to my opinion ...
(Well yes, most of the other leaderheads look better but the leaderhead is ok for me.)
 

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Tigranes is correct about the name Siksikáwa, but that only refers to one nation within the Blackfoot Confederacy the Sisiska, not significant on their own but the confederacy taken as a whole were as significant as most of their enemies such as the Shoshone, Crow, Cree and Nez Perce. The Confederacy consists of four tribes, the North Peigan, South Peigan, Kainai and Siksika nations. A more ethnologically correct name for the Blackfoot Confederacy, would be Niitsítapi. - "Original People"

Improving native AI would enhance the game, but I agree with Ray that including more nations would not necessarily be a detriment. You don't have to play a game with all the nations included.

Schmiddie brings up an interesting idea of using the new leaderhead for the Shoshone. Female leaders for the Shoshone are few and far between, but for a last resort we could always use Sacajawea. All I would have to do is change the biographical information. The leaderhead really would not need much altering if any.

That would leave the Washakie leaderhead free to be used for another nation, and as it is a male leaderhead which gives us a few more nations to consider.

If we decide to use the Washikie leaderhead for another tribe, and that is a big if, then again I suggest a North American one, if balancing allows. The Cree I think would be the strongest candidate. I know they are part of the Algonquian language group, but they did possess an area that at the present time is largely unoccupied on the map by other tribes. (See attached map) The clothes and the leaderhead would probably have to be modified a little but not much. Other contenders would be the Blackfoot, Crow and Nez Perce in that northwest area or perhaps the Seminole in the south. Although for the Seminole quite a bit of work would be needed for the leaderhead.

Eitherway we have plenty of time to discuss if new nations are going to be included and if so how many and what ones.

ameriques13[1][1].gif
Please remember the map is just a rough approximation of territorial area.
 
In this case I would go with using the new female leader as Sacajawea of the Shoshone, while the old Shoshone leader as a leader for the Cree like you said
EDIT: After reading a bit after the leaders, Washakie is way more fitting as a leader than Sacajawea. What would be the female leader of the Crow?

I'm not sure how many new natives are the team willing to add
But I would love to see the Guaymi for the central area
Found your last post:
6. Guaymi - They are not that well known but they are further south than the other civs in that area, helping to space out an already crowded section of the map.
Also, what about the Pawnee? You liked them in your last post, and IMO the leaderhead candidate was also good enough
4. Pawnee - Would occupy another area not yet represented. We have a pretty good leaderhead for them and they were bitter rivals of the Sioux.
 
In this case I would go with using the new female leader as Sacajawea of the Shoshone, while the old Shoshone leader as a leader for the Cree like you said.

It's not perfect I know, but using the Washikie leaderhead for another tribe does give us some more options.

EDIT: After reading a bit after the leaders, Washakie is way more fitting as a leader than Sacajawea.

You are right, Washikie is a more fitting leader, seeing as in a political/tribal sense, Sacajawea was never a leader of her people, although she is the most famous Shoshone.

What would be the female leader of the Crow?

Pine Leaf.

I'm not sure how many new natives are the team willing to add But I would love to see the Guaymi for the central area
Found your last post:

Nothing has been decided by the team yet. As for the Guaymi, they would in my opinion still be a good choice for a Central American tribe if the team decided to add more nations.

As a side note Novator has produced quite an interesting leaderhead that I think could be adapted for a potential Central/South American civ.

6e89b7b9682eb85298f0351433759fe6[1].png

Also, what about the Pawnee? You liked them in your last post, and IMO the leaderhead candidate was also good enough

I did like the Pawnee, but the team consensus was for the Comanchee. The Pawnee leaderhead is still pretty good, but my personal concern is that if you are playing on a historical map, having too many tribes clustered in an area might affect gameplay. The Pawnee would be squashed very close to the Sioux, Comanchee and Shoshone. That is why I am suggesting tribes such as the Cree who resided in areas that are not taken up yet.
 
Hi guys,

after reading and thinking a little bit, I would prefer the following variant:

1. As a small thankyou for SaibotLieh, we try to give him a few suggestions for historically correct female leaders for his fantastic leaderhead.

2. We leave all our existing Native Nations and Leaderheads as they are for now.

Of course, if somebody wants to improve the Leaderhead graphics, that would be great, but I don't really want to exchange currently.

3. We can continue brainstorming for a few more new Native Nations.
(It does not make sense to brainstorm 10 new ones ...)

According to the wishes and tendencies I see in the post, I would suggest to brainstorm:
2 Northern, 1 Central and 1 Southern Tribe

There are some interesting leaderhead graphics around. :)
Maybe more will be created. :dunno:


4. It does not make sense to try to come to a real decision at the moment.

It is almost sure, that no new Native Nations will be added for Release 2.
The team members needed for UnitArtStyles, Citysets, Flags, ... are simply too busy.

When these team members have time again, we can try to come to a decision if at all or when we will create new Native Nations.

As I said, we are simply preparing for possibilities in the future. :thumbsup:

We can continue to look for good graphics (Leaderheads, Units, Citysets, ...) and eventually even prepare historical data for the Native Nations most likely.

Maybe this might even become a topic that will be implemented in a ModMod ... :dunno:
 
I agree with you Ray. Although I like the challenge of finding new and varied native nations, I think its a wise call to leave the exisiting Native nations and leaderheads that we have as they are for the moment. Our efforts for release 2 should be to implement our second series of planned features and to tighten up the existing mod and any deficiencies we find from release 1.

Of course I encourage the forum to continue discussing new native nations, and to help us find new leaderheads, and I will certainly give feedback on any suggestions, but I think the team needs to focus on other things and not get too distracted.
 
You are right, Washikie is a more fitting leader, seeing as in a political/tribal sense, Sacajawea was never a leader of her people, although she is the most famous Shoshone.

Pine Leaf.

The short biography I found for Pine Leaf is very interesting
The new LH for SaibotLieh may be too hot for her, but she still get's my vote ;)
This way Washikie can stay as a leader for the Shoshone (the way it is right now in release 1), maybe we can find a better art for him later

I did like the Pawnee, but the team consensus was for the Comanchee. The Pawnee leaderhead is still pretty good, but my personal concern is that if you are playing on a historical map, having too many tribes clustered in an area might affect gameplay. The Pawnee would be squashed very close to the Sioux, Comanchee and Shoshone.

Yeah, but fortunately all the areas get populated with native tribes
Looked at your previous map, and another one between those 3 still wouldn't make it an overkill
I really like the suggested leaderhead, also the idea of having a separate Pawnee nation in the game

That is why I am suggesting tribes such as the Cree who resided in areas that are not taken up yet.

I was supporting the inclusion of the Cree from the beginning. Woods Cree, Swampy Cree, Moose Cree... they take up a totally unused part of the map, with up to 200.000 population still living today!
Not sure what LH to use for them though :/
 
I agree with you Ray. Although I like the challenge of finding new and varied native nations, I think its a wise call to leave the exisiting Native nations and leaderheads that we have as they are for the moment. Our efforts for release 2 should be to implement our second series of planned features and to tighten up the existing mod and any deficiencies we find from release 1.

Yes I agree with colonialfan and Ray. We already have a huge amount of native nations and not much difference between them except their visual appearance. First it will be good to introduce some more gameplay difference such as varying which Native Knowledges the tribes have available to give to the player, and maybe some unique units for the natives with an advantage in their home terrain/features.

As a small thankyou for SaibotLieh, we try to give him a few suggestions for historically correct female leaders for his fantastic leaderhead.
those are great graphics. btw I think saibotlieh is female though I don't know for sure.
 
I try to list the best options:

North:
Crow, with Pine Leaf as a female leaderhead


Pawnee, probably with Sharitahrish as leader


Cree, one of the best choices IMO but without a leaderhead unfortunately

The last 2 good leaderheads are probably a little southern-looking
Maybe they could be used with little modificitaions for the Seminole, or for the Pueblo/Anasazi natives?



Central:
Gauymi is a great choice, probably with Urraca as a leader. I would use this LH art for him:



South:
Omagua/Cambeba are close to the Machiparo, but with small changes both could be used. Would be very suitable for a second Amazon-river tribe.
Leader more or less suits them, small changes maybe (removing the moustache):


Also good options are the Chachapoya and the Mapuche. They could be added with little changes to the Inca and the Tehuelche (respectively).
The last 2 leaders could go in the area pretty well (with different background of course), especially the male one
 
Yes I agree with colonialfan and Ray. We already have a huge amount of native nations and not much difference between them except their visual appearance. First it will be good to introduce some more gameplay difference such as varying which Native Knowledges the tribes have available to give to the player, and maybe some unique units for the natives with an advantage in their home terrain/features.

Sounds great! :)
I only tried to list the best possible options to choose from, when and if you decide to add more natives

those are great graphics. btw I think saibotlieh is female though I don't know for sure.

He is a guy, he already said it in his thread
My guess is that's exactly the reason why he likes to make (and look at) pretty female leaderheads, instead of dull male ones ;)
 
I try to list the best options:

North:
Crow, with Pine Leaf as a female leaderhead

If using this leaderhead for a new native civ, I could go with the Crow or the Niitsítapi (Blackfoot Confederacy).

Pawnee, probably with Sharitahrish as leader

I agree with the choice of leader 100%.

Cree, one of the best choices IMO but without a leaderhead unfortunately

The Cree would be my first choice, especially in terms of geography on a historical map, but like you said, we really don't have a good leaderhead for them.:(

The last 2 good leaderheads are probably a little southern-looking. Maybe they could be used with little modificitaions for the Seminole, or for the Pueblo/Anasazi natives?

The first leaderhead we are already using for the Comanchee. As for the second leaderhead, it would need some real work to pass for a Seminole, and we already have the Apache and Navajo in that sw corner, so I'd be a little reluctant to add the Pueblo. Also the list of female chiefs for the Seminole and Pueblo is pretty scarce. Personally I'd rather go with the Seminole, there's nothing in Florida right now, but again its that leaderhead problem.:(

Central:
Gauymi is a great choice, probably with Urraca as a leader.

Again agree wholeheartedly with the choice of leader.

South:
Omagua/Cambeba are close to the Machiparo, but with small changes both could be used. Would be very suitable for a second Amazon-river tribe.
Leader more or less suits them, small changes maybe (removing the moustache)

Maybe also changing the color of the clothes and a fine other minor touches.

Also good options are the Chachapoya and the Mapuche. They could be added with little changes to the Inca and the Tehuelche (respectively).
The last 2 leaders could go in the area pretty well (with different background of course), especially the male one

Not too sure about adding an addition 2 native civs.
 
If using this leaderhead for a new native civ, I could go with the Crow or the Niitsítapi (Blackfoot Confederacy).

Sounds good
I like the idea of Pine Leaf as a leader, that's why I said the Crow, but I can go either way

The Cree would be my first choice, especially in terms of geography on a historical map, but like you said, we really don't have a good leaderhead for them.:(

Yeah, they should really be in
Will try to make a request for a Cree LH, maybe Novator will take that too

The first leaderhead we are already using for the Comanchee.

Ohh, sorry
I saw it among the possible leader art listed by Ray a few posts ago
Didn't double check

As for the second leaderhead, it would need some real work to pass for a Seminole, and we already have the Apache and Navajo in that sw corner, so I'd be a little reluctant to add the Pueblo. Also the list of female chiefs for the Seminole and Pueblo is pretty scarce. Personally I'd rather go with the Seminole, there's nothing in Florida right now, but again its that leaderhead problem.:(

Agreed, I don't like that LH that much anyway
It would be nice to have either the Seminole or the Pueblo later
But they are not one of our top options currently

I agree with the choice of leader 100%.

Again agree wholeheartedly with the choice of leader.

Thanks :)

Maybe also changing the color of the clothes and a fine other minor touches.

Agreed. Overally I got to like that LH as an amazonian leader
(when I first saw I was totally against it, but after a couple weeks I kinda got used to the idea)

Not too sure about adding an addition 2 native civs.

This is just getting together the best possibilities we (the mod) have
So don't have to add all of them

What if we move back the female leader to meso-america? She is more central looking anyway (was intended to be an aztec LH)
Sooo, then we have another option: to add the Purépecha (Tarascans)
They had high influence in the area, had huge population, conflicts with both the Aztecs and the Spanish
And we have a more or less fitting female leader: Princess Eréndira
Even a film was made about her life recently: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0445960/

Also, I would still use the male LH for either the Chachapoya or the Mapuche
Mapuche would be a much better choice geopgraphically, around south Chile, near the Tehuelche
 
So, the top choices IMO (which already have fitting LH art):
North:
Crow/Apsáalooke with Pine Leaf (alternatively, using the same LH: Blackfoot/Niitsítapi if there is a good female leader for them)
Pawnee with Sharitahrish

Central:
Guaymi with Urraca
Purépecha/Tarascans with Erendira

South:
Omagua/Cambeba
Mapuche, maybe with Lautaro as leader?


EDIT:
Didn't really find good female leader-candidate for the Blackfoot
There are 2 good male leader options though (both Siksika): Crowfoot/Isapo-Muxika or Running Rabbit/Aatsista-Mahkan

Also, what's the best candidates for the Cree in your opinion?
Poundmaker/Pitikwahanapiwiyin or Big Bear/Mistahi-maskwa are among them?
 
Another option I bumped into when running through old civs:
What do you guys think about the Dene? Thanadelthur seems like a fitting leader
 

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