[Religion and Revolution]: Further Native Nations

Link 2 is already in TAC. Orkeke is the leader of Tehuelche.

I am currently talking about the Leaderhead graphics only. ;)
(I am not talking about Nations or specific Leaders.)

I used the existing structure and simply gave Orkeke other graphics to test these.
(By doing so, I have tested about 20 different leaderheads.)

Currently our choices for adding further Native Nations are a little bit limited by the fact,
that not too many good Native Leaderheads are existant and no team member could create new ones.

Thus it might be a good approach, to find Nations for existing Leaderheads, instead of Leaderheads for Nations. :dunno:
 
@team:

Do you have any suggestion, how to use the graphics I have posted here ?

Could we use Link 1 for Navajo ? (as intended by the creator)
Could we use Link 2 for Caribs ? :dunno:

Would any leaderhead fit to Shoshone or Ute or Comanche or Cheyenne ? :think:
Would any leaderhead fit to Alonquin ?
Is there any South American or Central American Native Nation, that comes up to your mind, where we could use one of the leaderheads ?
 
Some more leaderheads I found:

Nanyi Hi <-- high quality but female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Atototzli <-- female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Salamasina <-- a little too "comic-like", female leaders are not that easy considering authenticity
Pacific <-- :dunno:
Cochise <-- relatively low quality, but still ok
Smoke Jaguar <-- could be interesting
Geronimo <-- very low quality
 
@team:

Could we use Link 1 for Navajo ? (as intended by the creator)
Could we use Link 2 for Caribs ? :dunno:

Would any leaderhead fit to Shoshone or Ute or Comanche or Cheyenne ? :think:
Would any leaderhead fit to Alonquin ?
Is there any South American or Central American Native Nation, that comes up to your mind, where we could use one of the leaderheads ?

Link 1 would be fine for the Navajo.
Link 2 would be acceptable for the Caribs, there is some evidence that they used body paint. It could have been blue?

As for Shoshone or Ute, Link Acceptable Quality 3, would be the closest physical representation.

The best physical representation for the Comanche and Cheyenne would be the links for Cochise or Geronimo.

A generalized Algonquin representation should be similar to the ones used for the Huron and Iroquois. With that being said, Link Acceptable Quality 1 would be the best match, but Link Good Quality 2, would also work. (If we use the good quality link, don't worry about the gender issue, I'll find the needed biographical information for an Algonquin female chief.)

Link Good Quality 1 and Acceptable Quality 2, would best represent Central American civs. Olmec, Toltec, Mixtec and Nahua all spring to mind.
 
Ok, then let us do this:

Next 3 New Native Nations:

Alonquin (North)
Navajo (North)
Caribs (Central)

Then:
(We need to balance out the North again by adding 2 Nations in the South and one in the Central would be good, too.)

Mixtec (Central)
Southern 1 (other Background of course)
Southern 2

@team:
Is everybody ok with this ?

@colonialfan:
Could you make some suggestions for "Southern 1" and "Southern 2" ?
Also it would be great, if you could start collecting the data for the next Native Nations (Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs). :thumbsup:

---------------------------------------- <-- To my opinion, we have used up the best leaderheads at this point.

Then Maybe:

Comanche
Shoshone
Cheyenne
Northern 1
Southern or Central 1
Southern or Central 2
Southern or Central 3
 
@colonialfan:
Could you make some suggestions for "Southern 1" and "Southern 2" ?
Also it would be great, if you could start collecting the data for the next Native Nations (Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs). :thumbsup:

Sure. I'll start on them as soon as I've finished off the text for Denmark. Do you want me to gather information for the Algonquin, Navajo & Caribs, before I start on the Tehuelche and Shuar? I don't mind either way, whatever works best for the team.

As for other southern tribes, might I suggest the Muisca and Cambeba. The Muisca lived in Columbia and some of their practices were largely responsible for fueling the stories of "El Dorado." I thought that might be a nice touch for the game and besides we do not have a tribe from Columbia represented yet.

In regards to the Cambeba, not that widely known after the 16th century, but when Francisco De Orellana travelled down the Amazon in the early 1540's, he mentioned that they had large expansive villages and were a civilization of some note.
 
I'll start on them as soon as I've finished off the text for Denmark.

This weekend I will be busy with "Rebuild Horses" anyway. :)

But generally, work on whatever you want to do first.
(Denmark or New Native Nations or ...)

Do you want me to gather information for the Algonquin, Navajo & Caribs, before I start on the Tehuelche and Shuar?

What do you want to do for Tehuelche and Shuar ? :confused:
(I thought we said, we leave them as they are for now. See here)

As for other southern tribes, might I suggest the Muisca and Cambeba. The Muisca lived in Columbia and some of their practices were largely responsible for fueling the stories of "El Dorado." I thought that might be a nice touch for the game and besides we do not have a tribe from Columbia represented yet.

In regards to the Cambeba, not that widely known after the 16th century, but when Francisco De Orellana travelled down the Amazon in the early 1540's, he mentioned that they had large expansive villages and were a civilization of some note.

Sounds good. :)
 
I meant text wise. Their bio's need a little beefing up, ...

Ah ok. :)

However, it would be great, if you could do New Nations first, so I can integrate them and KJ could take a look at graphics when he got some time to do so.
(Denmark, Alonquin, Navajo, Caribs, ...)
 
Will do.:)

I should have all of Denmark finished (Denmark Bio, Danish Monarchy, Hans Egede & Jen Munk) by this weekend. I'll start on the Navajo and Caribs next as they should be pretty easy and quick to do. The Algonquins might take a bit longer as Algonquin is the name of a language group rather than a specific tribe. But I'm sure I'll find an Algonquin speaking tribe with a female leader that has a sufficient bio.
 
Will do.:)

I should have all of Denmark finished (Denmark Bio, Danish Monarchy, Hans Egede & Jen Munk) by this weekend. I'll start on the Navajo and Caribs next as they should be pretty easy and quick to do. The Algonquins might take a bit longer as Algonquin is the name of a language group rather than a specific tribe. But I'm sure I'll find an Algonquin speaking tribe with a female leader that has a sufficient bio.

Great. :goodjob:
(There is no need to hurry, however. :) )
 
1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

Well historically, Colonialfan must be right... I had never heard about Shuar and Tehuelche. And yet, I've heard about Jivaro and Mapuche.

I abolutely agree with this, Jivaro and Mapuche are more fitting names
Also it's not too much work to change the text of the already existing civs
 
I also agree with conolialfan, that keeping the simmetry in the number of southern and northern natives is not that realistic
North America is significantly bigger (both territory and easily inhabitable areas), and has way more different styled regions

AFAIK you guys currently have:
Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Inuits, Hurons, Aztec, Maya, Zapotec, Arawak, Tupi, Inca, Tehuelche/Mapuche, Shuar/Jivaro, Guarani

With the addition of Navajo, Comanche, Algonquin, Carib it would get as complete as it could be IMO:
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Comanche, Inuit, Algonquin
Central: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec
Caribbean: Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Mapuche, Jivaro, Guarani

I'm against having lesser known central or southern american tribes just for the sake of having more, or for completing the simmetry between north and south native numbers...



EDIT: Instead of the Algonquin an even better idea might be the Cree. The area is more or less the same, and it can also be implemented as a loose federation. The same way the Algonquin would be or the same way the Iroquois are...
Or if you already have the base work done for the Algonquins, maybe adding both is not a bad idea either ;)


EDIT2: The Comanche is definitely worth including. They had the biggest horse and mounted culture among the north american natives
But while I am not exactly a fan of either the Comanche or Sioux, the Comanche are still fairly well known. (In Texas, Oklahoma, etc. The Texas Ranger arose due to the Comanche etc.) Its just that the Comanche were a more interesting civ. As seen by their map their raids went all the way from Mexico to the Eastern U.S. At their peak there were more than 2,000,000 horses in Comancheria and developed as the biggest horse based civ in North America.
Here is a map of Comanche control and extent of raids in their empire/nation.

http://oieahc.wm.edu/wmq/Apr10/hamalainen.html
 
Upon reading a little more, maybe adding the Chibcha for SA would be very fitting:
...Chibcha ethnic group, famous for their use of gold, which led to the legend of El Dorado. At the time of the Spanish conquest, the Chibchas were the largest native civilization between the Incas and the Aztecs.

They were also made for Civ V in a very good fan-made mod: Native American Civilizations
It's worth to check the image made for them, IMO it's one of the best: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17370

So my more or less final list would be:
North: Apache, Sioux, Cherokee, Iroquois, Hurons, Navajo, Comanche, Inuit, Algonquin and/or Cree
Central: Aztec, Maya, Zapotec
Caribbean: Arawak, Carib
South: Inca, Tupi, Mapuche, Jivaro, Guarani, Chibcha
 
Woah AbsintheRed, slow down. :)

1. Changing Nations that are already 100% completed and integrated. (Talking about Shuar and Tehuelche.)

A) They have been made by my former team (TAC) and I have respect for all the work they put in them.
Since we base on TAC, I don't want to change things like that without good reasons.

B) It is a lot of work !
Background Texts, Diplomacy Dialogs, Great Generals, City Names, Leaderhead Balancing, Flags, UnitArtStyles, ...
Not to forget all the work for translation.
I really would not like to do that, without really really good reason.
Also, we have massive amounts of work already for finishing up our other New Native Nations.

2. About - at least rudimentary - balancing Natives (North, Central, South)

This is generally necessary !
Otherwise you will get totally strange distributions of Natives during random maps.
The Feature "Historically Correct Placement of Natives" would create extremely strange results.
Sorry, we will not create totally inbalanced list of Natives.

3. Most of all we are currently limited by the availability of good leaderhead graphics.

There are not many good leaderheads left and we will use these first, of course.

4. Thanks for your hint about Chibcha. :thumbsup:

I never heard of them, but I will check.
 
Woah AbsintheRed, slow down. :)

Why? We should rather get faster ;)

1. I only meant a name change there
Shuar is part of the Jivaro culture group
Tehuelche is also very similar to Mapuche, but you are probably right, a simple name-change wouldn't work here

2. AFAIK you guys already planned to add the Algonquins, Najavo and Caribs
Maybe even the Comanche eventually
So actually I only made one new north american suggestion, while making a south american too ;)

With 10 north and 6-7 south american natives would it still cause problems for your "Historically Correct Placement of Natives" feature?

3. Finding the perfect art is usually a huge problem, I certainly know that as a fellow modder :/

4. Hope you will like it too
Initially I was against adding them as I never heard of them either, but quickly changed my mind
 
This is colonialfan's post from a couple months ago

South America

We currently have the Inca, Tupi, Shuar & Tehuelche and are considering adding the Guarani. I think 5 tribes in South America is sufficient, however I would suggest the following changes:

1. Change Shuar to Jivaro.
The Shuar are one of 4 tribes that make up the Jivaro. Also the Shuar are a rather small tribe located in a rather specific area. If they were renamed the Jivaro, then they could firstly, be more numerous and secondly cover a much wider area.

2. Change the Tehuelche to Mapuche. Very much for the same reasons we want to change the Shuar to Jivaro.

Leaderheads, buttons, etc would not be a problem as none of that would have to change, the leaders would stay the same. All that would have to change is the historical biographies, add more names of villages, great generals etc., which I could provide.

I very much agree with him, and don't think it would too much work
Btw the Mapuche and the Tehuelche are not as directly related as the Shuar and Jivaro (Shuar being a small tribe part of the Jivaro native group)
So another option would be to keep the Tehuelche and simply add the Mapuche

This would be good for the north-south balance too
If you decide to add the Chibcha too, you could get 7 good south american natives
 
In the next steps we will add 6 more:
(This is definitely planned.)

North:
Alonquin, Navajo

Central:
Caribs, Mixtec

South:
2 more, where colonialfan will make a first suggestion

At that point, we will be balanced again. :)
After that we will see. :dunno:

Thanks for your input. :thumbsup:
(Maybe Chibcha could be used for one of the 2 Southern Native Civs. :dunno:)
 
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