Introduction and some questions

Hey guys,

I'm glad I found this community, particularly after the fact that the main forums seem to be dead and full of bad advice and just really weird suggestions for civ 6 (let us build our towns like sim city etc.)

I'm a long term player of Alpha Centauri. Though i played Civ 1 on my friend's 2x86 PC back when I was in 4th grade, I can only claim to have ever mastered SMAC/SMACX. I loved it and still love it and carry it around on a flash drive for those moments when I'm away from my main PC. Like for example, when I'm at work

I had tried Civ 5 when it came out but I didn't really like it. I heard it had a Jay Wilson moment with its lead designer. But now I tried its current state (BNW and all that jazz) and boy do I fell in love with it! Since installing it I've had moments where I lose track of time. I t's 8 PM, I play a few turns, restart a couple of times, and then it's suddenly 4 AM and I have work tomorrow!

I started on Deity because I could consistently beat the AIs on Transcend in SMAC (but usually with Zach or Morgan, I never did like early low tech wars in SMAC). I got a handful, let me tell you that!

Civ 5 seems to permit a lot fewer noobie mistakes. Heck, a couple of turns of build time or the wrong unit purchased can make you or break you. My first real game, which made it to turn 130-ish was a single city Morocco map. Desert start between two rivers, huge floodplain area, several wheat resources, abundant hills (city was founded on one), Desert Folklore (I save scummed specifically to get a faith ruin because I didn't know how to compete for faith with the Deity AI at my first real game. I now play with the same random seed to prevent load abuse), Petra etc.

It became the holy city for my faith. Boudicca was next door. She tried to GP bomb my city. I captured 5 or 6 GPs from her and my faith income scyrocketed. I had Holy Warriors and an epic defense in the Middle Ages with purchased crossbows and my unique tile improvement.

Anyway, since then I've been trying different civs and different starts. I've been reading a lot too, particularly here and this guy's guides, not to mention the wiki.

But the predominant opinion on civfanatics is to go Tradition and to get National College around turn 50ish to even have a fighting chance on Deity. Doesn't matter if you want to warmonger or do whatever - you must get this first. Is this really the case? I'll ask specific civ questions later in relation to this.

I saw the civ deity tier list and I'm glad it's being updated. When I read it first England was placed in the middle of the list, and now it's second best. IMO that should be the case since I gave them a try, though they definitely need some planning to be effective.

So my questions to specific civs:

I love the Huns and Mongols. I want to be successful with them, but I don't like gimmicky 4 player maps the size of a football field. The maps I play are Large or bigger, usually Continents or maybe Fractal If I'm feeling bored. I feel that Continents is the most balanced for all civs. I don't want to cheat by being Polynesia on Archipelago or something similar.

So how to win with those two factions on Deity? I got a great start with the huns - 3 gold and 1 silver, near a mountain and a river. First I boomed and got barracks, National College and some other stuff, but by that time my good neighbor Austira had 25 combat strength cities and Composite Bows. I restarted, I immediately went for HAs and Rams. She still had 15+ combat strenght cities by the time I got to her, and they soon went to 19. Is this really bad luck on my part or am I missing something here?

Not even sure what to make of Genghis and his boys. 30% vs. City States seems worthless as

1. The CS start in very bad spots usually
2. The bonuses for being friends with them are usually better than conquering them
3. Warmonger penalties are a pain in the butt

At least there is no pressure to waste precious hammers and turns from the very start to get something out of your UU. Still stumped on how to win Domination with them. (excluding small maps as I said)

Assyria I will try tonight. That UA seems that it can allow me to beeline military tech whilst making up for it by conquest. Once I have my continent to myself I can go for the usual Education, Porcelain Tower etc.

In SMAC i loved to turtle and research tech, but then I could get all the Secret Projects even on Transcend. I'm OCD like that - if I can't get all the wonders, I don't like to play super passively. Plus, the tech had a different feeling in SMAC and IMO was more fun to research. That's why I'd like some measure of aggression in Civ 5 but it seems BNW has really made it not economically and strategically feasible to wage war, especially in the first three eras (which are my favorite for war anyway and which are favored by the three warlike civs i have interest in).

I plan also on trying other factions. I have a good start with England, rusing the Great Lighthouse and then the Oracle. Still, Longbows are awesome but I have trouble capturing beefy AI cities of strength between 25 and 30 in the middle ages, longbows and all. Granted, the only time I tried this I was up against India, but still. Am I really forced to wait until Artilery or cripple my early game for some dubious archaic/classical age rushes as the Huns/Assyria?

Sidenote: I really hate how the AI has huge bonuses to religion (basically because it plays super wide) and I constantly struggle to get the good beliefs. Yeah, if I get ruin luck or some awesome gold/stone/natural wonder start, maybe I can get World Church and Pagodas. Most often than not I'll get the lesser beliefs however.

Babylon: everyone seems to agree that they are OP. I always end up going with one ultra tall city and just click end turn (and the turns get very slow after T100 or so). This is boring and I'm not sure how to spice it up. Granted I never actually stayed past the Industrialization era but... Also, I got the Hanging Gardens only once so far. Usually I can't get it in time, and I really want it as Babylon. Also, I usually do get the Oracle, but that rushes my SPs so that I can't pop Rationalism since I'm still not into the Renaissance era in time. So actually it hurts me because I have to choose something else before that time.

I'm planning on getting some good done with England and her two spies, I could use some tips. Also generally tips on social policies - everyone here seems to agree that Tradition rules and everything else drools. How can I get a reformation belief in time if I don't open Religion though? How do I even warmonger in the first three eras without Honor?

Any tips on on Carthage, Spain, Inca, Mayans, Poland, Russia and the Arab Caliphate?

Thanks for reading the long post!

Welcome to CivFanatics! I like your name.

Your post is full of content, so I'll address it piece by piece via quotes and such...

But the predominant opinion on civfanatics is to go Tradition and to get National College around turn 50ish to even have a fighting chance on Deity. Doesn't matter if you want to warmonger or do whatever - you must get this first. Is this really the case? I'll ask specific civ questions later in relation to this.

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It's kind of a pain, but yeah, it really is. I wouldn't say going wide is a bad thing, but the bonuses you get from Tradition help your first 4 cities grow so quickly that you'll get way more science than trying to go wide early. I don't think the science penalty per city really hurts all that much - it just punishes you for settling tons of cities and not developing them, but giving them a little leg up with a library or a few extra population points will mean that the penalty is negated at that point. A lot of people would say otherwise, but eh.

Another problem is that the way it goes, going Tall seems like something which will benefit you sooner rather than later. Going wide, if you can pull it off, may let you catch up, but quite honestly Civ 5 is a snowball game, and if you get ahead, your small advantages eventually grow to become large ones.

Due to the fact that you'll be best off going Tall, getting that National College up as soon as possible in your capital is a great play. More science, always better. Best yield. Second best is Food, because that indirectly makes you more Science in the end.

I saw the civ deity tier list and I'm glad it's being updated. When I read it first England was placed in the middle of the list, and now it's second best. IMO that should be the case since I gave them a try, though they definitely need some planning to be effective.

Click to expand...

I'm really glad there's been some shakeups on what good civs are. I still remember the days when England were considered one of the worst civs, but they're in a really nice place now. America is now one of the ones called the worst (on a side note, I think that +1 sight bonus is an incredible bonus and is very downplayed). I dream of a day where all civs are considered great, but because science is king, any civ with bonuses to that will naturally be considered better. It's how it goes, I guess.

I can't give you help on Deity questions, because I'm not nearly at that standard yet! Kind of makes me feel silly giving you all that advice earlier, but hey. One tip I can give you though is that Honor really isn't necessary to warmonger. Don't get me wrong, if you intend to conquer and pillage, it'll help, but you tend to fall behind in Civ due to a worse off economy rather than because your military guys didn't have a specific bonus. The combat AI isn't really anything to be impressed with, either, so you can get away with not opening it if you're careful with how you handle happiness.

Anyways, that'll be the end of my post. Welcome again!

Thanks SalemSage! Anyone else replying to any party of my post is welcome!

I seem to have trouble adjusting my flow. I can't switch to offensive production, once I get the turtle mindset I just want to pile on wonders, natinal wonders, armouries and so on.

I got to Conquistadors and Tercio with Spain (started with Kilimanjaro and Sinai) and still didn't build any because I wanted all the +xp buildings in madrid but also a Grand Temple and Hagia Sofia and Lighthouse and Workshop and... you get the picture.

There is too much stuff to build and the later you build it the further behind you get. So it's better to pile on production, pop and science and just churn out artillery than trying to capitalize on pre-industrial UUs... and that makes me sad.

Build mines and lumber, chop down trees, build production buildings and get production social policies. Get a pantheon or belief with production. Then you're all set.

Welcome aboard! I've heard stories and they are legendary ;-)

Myth and Legend said:

There is too much stuff to build and the later you build it the further behind you get. So it's better to pile on production, pop and science and just churn out artillery than trying to capitalize on pre-industrial UUs... and that makes me sad.

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Ranged units are the key. So civs with fast ranged pre-industrial UUs like Egypt, Mongols or Arabia, are powerful for early domination. Exception is Zulus.
With Rome (despite Ballists), Athens or Spain it's harder. Their units cannot make the game.

A few player know how to rocks with Denmark, Carthage, Iroquois, Ottomans, Persians.

So beeline fast artillery is the better way for domination. Fast tech machinery for long-bowman is a good gamble.

Early domination can't be played as a normal game, if I believe what I read here. So try just build 2/3 cities, pop an army, and push it. You'll saw what happen.

Have a nice 1000 hours of play !

Myth and Legend said:

I'm a long term player of Alpha Centauri.

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SMAC/X spoiled me for Civ III and IV. I tried them both, then went back. I can see sticking with Civ V until VI comes out, and I have not even tried BNW yet.

I started on Deity because I could consistently beat the AIs on Transcend in SMAC (but usually with Zach or Morgan, I never did like early low tech wars in SMAC). I got a handful, let me tell you that!

Click to expand...

Yikes, I will bet! The higher difficulty levels being about impossible in III and IV was one of the weakest features with those iterations. Nor could I progress from one difficulty level to the next. (One level was much too easy, the next level up much too hard.) It seems to me that SMAC got the difficulty levels exactly right. (Well, the availability of one or two levels harder would have been nice.) The spacing between levels was good. And no matter how much I played, losing at Transcend was always a possibility. I still have not won at deity with V, but at least I feel like it could happen, if only I would just follow some of the advice on this board more closely...

Civ 5 seems to permit a lot fewer noobie mistakes. Heck, a couple of turns of build time or the wrong unit purchased can make you or break you.

Click to expand...

Deity is very unforgiving. You might find the game more fun at a lower difficulty setting. If nothing else, you won’t be able to a try a good variety of the policies and wonders unless you relax a bit.

In SMAC i loved to turtle and research tech, but then I could get all the Secret Projects even on Transcend. I'm OCD like that - if I can't get all the wonders, I don't like to play super passively. Plus, the tech had a different feeling in SMAC and IMO was more fun to research.

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I agree with these points. I could not get all the Secret Project on Transcend, but maybe how easy they were to rush-buy at the end was not really a feature? I am finding it compelling to have to balance wonders against the opportunity costs.

I still miss how distinct the AI personalities were in SMAC. I also think the unit workshop is better than UU, but the latter fits the genre, and is a huge improvement over III and IV.

Myth and Legend said:

I plan also on trying other factions. I have a good start with England, rusing the Great Lighthouse and then the Oracle. Still, Longbows are awesome but I have trouble capturing beefy AI cities of strength between 25 and 30 in the middle ages, longbows and all. Granted, the only time I tried this I was up against India, but still. Am I really forced to wait until Artilery or cripple my early game for some dubious archaic/classical age rushes as the Huns/Assyria?

Click to expand...

China may be a nice alternative. Their Crossbow (Chu-ko-nu) can attack twice per turn, their Library (Paper Maker) provides gold, and their ability (Art of War) gives faster, better Great Generals.

Myth and Legend said:

That's why I'd like some measure of aggression in Civ 5 but it seems BNW has really made it not economically and strategically feasible to wage war, especially in the first three eras (which are my favorite for war anyway and which are favored by the three warlike civs i have interest in).

Click to expand...

Here as in other places you have pretty much answered your own question.

I hate the lack of reward for early conquest and game-breaking warmonger penalties in BNW but in all iterations of CiV the task of making the game work exactly the way you want it is up to the player. Either try different difficulty levels and play with self-imposed limitations (I avoid Tradition in most of my games, for example, and try different ways of going wide and generating conflict (this is on Immortal)), or focus on optimum play on Deity.

Playing the Huns on Deity and abandoning games before industrial seems like trying to have it both ways. I would recommend to pick one preference. The game can demand just as much out of you on lower levels when you self-impose limits on easy strategies.

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Regarding religion, it is really just broke in BNW. The AI's zealotry creates an environment where natural religious spread doesn't even matter, every city on the map will have 5 different missionaries or prophets sent to it with different religions at some point.

The player can devote just as much attention to religion as the most zealous AI (a completely self-sabotaging idea in the first place) and only be rewarded with a small foothold. (On the other hand sometimes it rolls so that only one civ plays a religion game, but because you were expecting the normal four-civ press you failed to take advantage of the opportunity for spread. Broken, like I said). I don't think we'll see this fixed at this point. It was way more balanced and functional in G&K.

You can still found and defend your chosen pantheon and building beliefs in your own cities ok, if you are Celts/Ethiopia/Maya or any civ that meets a religions CS and settles next to a religious wonder. Surprisingly those two things happen together often enough. I've had decent religions as Germany on an Honor start. Just respond to the opening cues.

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As long as you are playing BNW and not G&K, I'd really recommend staying in a game until the modern era, because that's where BNW shines and is a lot of fun. The ability to tailor Ideology tenets for your exact strategy is the biggest improvement in BNW. Personally I would recommend playing in Immortal, where the earliest AI victories are turn 360, so there's no pressure to stick to a perfect Tradition start, and no real harm in a weak start where you come back in the end. BNW features like World Congress and Tourism are actually more interesting when you have less strength/control over them.