immortal huge map tips?

So I have been messing around with immortal and looking at some guides/advice but I find a lot is geared towards normal size map and when it is geared to huge size map people seem to like to put 17 civs in which both I feel really puts a cap on the AI's early expansion advantage. What are some tips to keep up if you are playing with say 9 civs on huge/epic? I've had some success militarily with Darius + immortal rushes but even after I crush 3/4 of a nearby civ (I haven't tried that many times so haven't finished one off yet in my trial games) my empire is still on the small size and my economy is too weak leading to a massive tech disadvantage (and the nothing left to build but units problem). In terms of my current 'regular play' I win easily on prince with no huts and no cheating in the same settings and can win pretty comfortably on monarch with strong leaders (for my style of play that means fin or org trait). I generally win a space victory but usually have an insurmountable tech lead for much of the game allowing me to win most ways i want.

I play on huge Hemispheres + 11 AIs, 6 continents + raging barbs + huts.
And I just lost an Immortal game to an AI (Justinian) who won cultural. (He founded 5 religions)
Overexpansion or falling behind in one or more areas (science, production, military) is a game killer.
You have to find a balance between expanding + growing your cities. And not having enough workers seems always to be a problem.

I just started a Huge map with 9 AI because it never came to mind until seeing this. Seems to be going well, up to 1000 BC. Oracled MC, 4 cities up, 5th to come soon. Chose Darius because the FIN trait should do well in early and late game, Org will help with civic upkeep and courthouses for the large empire I'm planning. Map is continents and only met one AI so far (Sitting Bull), haven't found his land yet though. Lots of barbs for lack of neighbors and tech could be slow if I don't find a few more in time to trade for alpha early on.

I don't think I'll be trying to kill anyone since I'll have all the land I need, fighting would be an over investment and at best I steal a few techs, but an economic focus until the later stages could do better than fighting here. Especially with the AIs ability to REX.

Maybe I'll war to capture some wonders if it doesn't seem too difficult. Will keep ya updated on how I think the mid-late game is going and any tips I can think of that differs from the Standard maps or Huge+17AI.

I've played some huge/marathon maps, on both immortal and deity, and I don't think 17 AIs is a problem as such. If anything, it seems better balanced that way, because huge maps are truly HUGE. Even on Big and Small, where a large section of the map is only small islands, the AIs have no problem getting to 10+ cities if you let them.

With potentially so many cities early on, maintenance will become an issue, especially on the higher difficulties, so you need a strong economy. Preferably a strong capital with some kind of strong commerce (like silver, gold, gems) but also good land that you can cottage; not only in the capital, but also in other cities.

One thing to keep in mind on these huge maps is that typical "no brainer" play like getting an Academy, Oxford and Buro isn't as strong as it usually is, because the capital won't contribute 50% of your research rate or whatever. So it may be better to save early Great People for Golden Ages or bulbing instead. Oxford itself is still strong if you go that route (naturally only for long games, like space), but all those universities cost a lot of hammers (you need 8 on huge maps). Being PHI of course helps.

Other than that, it's comparatively easier to wage war on the slower settings, especially on marathon. Units last longer, and due to the increased number of turns, you don't "lose" as much in travel time from city to city. Distances are longer too, however, so there is that to take account of, especially if you have relatively few AIs. Even with 17 AIs on a huge map, your neighbour can be quite a way off -- depending on what type of map you are playing.

If you do play with many AIs, and like warfare, especially early worker stealing, you're likely to rack up quite a bit of negative diplo from "declared war on my friend". With many AIs, there probably won't be a near-homogenic spread of religions either, so you need to keep on top of the diplomacy, choose your sides, as it's difficult or impossible to stay friends with everybody.

Pangaea said:

I've played some huge/marathon maps, on both immortal and deity, and I don't think 17 AIs is a problem as such. If anything, it seems better balanced that way, because huge maps are truly HUGE. Even on Big and Small, where a large section of the map is only small islands, the AIs have no problem getting to 10+ cities if you let them.

With potentially so many cities early on, maintenance will become an issue, especially on the higher difficulties, so you need a strong economy. Preferably a strong capital with some kind of strong commerce (like silver, gold, gems) but also good land that you can cottage; not only in the capital, but also in other cities.

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Interesting I'll try to be more greedy w/good location before I play. I did notice in trials where I had gold off the bat things went a lot better.

One thing to keep in mind on these huge maps is that typical "no brainer" play like getting an Academy, Oxford and Buro isn't as strong as it usually is, because the capital won't contribute 50% of your research rate or whatever. So it may be better to save early Great People for Golden Ages or bulbing instead. Oxford itself is still strong if you go that route (naturally only for long games, like space), but all those universities cost a lot of hammers (you need 8 on huge maps). Being PHI of course helps.

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Agree. I have been playing this way anyways since I always play on huge maps. Never really understood why people care so much about these until I realized how much smaller the normal map size is!

Other than that, it's comparatively easier to wage war on the slower settings, especially on marathon. Units last longer, and due to the increased number of turns, you don't "lose" as much in travel time from city to city. Distances are longer too, however, so there is that to take account of, especially if you have relatively few AIs. Even with 17 AIs on a huge map, your neighbour can be quite a way off -- depending on what type of map you are playing.

If you do play with many AIs, and like warfare, especially early worker stealing, you're likely to rack up quite a bit of negative diplo from "declared war on my friend". With many AIs, there probably won't be a near-homogenic spread of religions either, so you need to keep on top of the diplomacy, choose your sides, as it's difficult or impossible to stay friends with everybody.

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Yep. I play Epic which is half the pace of marathon, but maybe I will try marathon. The travel time has been more of an issue in my immortal games than on the easier difficulties.

InovA said:

I just started a Huge map with 9 AI because it never came to mind until seeing this. Seems to be going well, up to 1000 BC. Oracled MC, 4 cities up, 5th to come soon. Chose Darius because the FIN trait should do well in early and late game, Org will help with civic upkeep and courthouses for the large empire I'm planning. Map is continents and only met one AI so far (Sitting Bull), haven't found his land yet though. Lots of barbs for lack of neighbors and tech could be slow if I don't find a few more in time to trade for alpha early on.

I don't think I'll be trying to kill anyone since I'll have all the land I need, fighting would be an over investment and at best I steal a few techs, but an economic focus until the later stages could do better than fighting here. Especially with the AIs ability to REX.

Maybe I'll war to capture some wonders if it doesn't seem too difficult. Will keep ya updated on how I think the mid-late game is going and any tips I can think of that differs from the Standard maps or Huge+17AI.

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Cool looking forward! One issue I had when I didn't warmonger is my power dropped too low and I got attacked by a few AIs pretty early. I almost feel like protective is not as worthless a trait on Immortal as it is in the easier difficulties. Still, I have been using Darius like you for my immortal game attempts

Immortal NHNE Normal Speed, Huge map, continents with 9 players.
It's 1080 AD and I feel like I can win this one.
Map:


Overview of history:
-During BCs I just focused on REXing, fell down to 0.5 ratio with some AIs for a short while, hovered at 0.7 ratio most of the time.
-Oracle -> MC, did not go for an engineer to get a wonder, though that probably would've been better. Just wanted to focus on REX more than anything.
-Got Great Library. Held onto Great Prophet until 1000 AD, used for Golden Age.
-Used 3 Great Scientists to bulb Philosophy and Education (x2). Wish I'd hold onto them for 2nd Golden age, but meh, will be glad to win Lib race and get MT by 1120 AD. *Took Pangaea's advice and skipped the Academy, it makes sense after he brought it up, but it feels so weird to avoid making one

I kept up with all the AIs' city counts, save Babylon going crazy and catching a few barb cities.
Got up to 13 cities myself, captured 1 barb city, and went to war with Sitting Bull, just captured 2nd city of his. Plan to commit all the way and capture the other 9.
I wanted to just REX all day and abandon the idea of war unless there was a good wonder nearby, but after I got to 12 cities while Babylon had 16 and Mali had a decent tech lead on me, it looked too enticing to attack the backwards Native Americans and double my city count much more quickly.
Started war in 960 AD with only Maces and Catapults, Knights and Trebs recently joined the attack and I'll be whipping cuirs in 3 turns, should have no troubles with this war.

Debating on whether or not to try to take the whole continent, at the very least leaving Mali alive. Still haven't met the civs on the other continent(s) there should be 4 more out there so I shouldn't commit too heavily to warring my continent in case there's a superpower on the other side with a tech lead.

nice! thanks for the update.

So I tried emperor instead of immortal for a bit, got pretty close .. was leader with julius caeser until about 1600 AD and a significant lead in tech but then I got invaded by a massive stack from joao who was #2 and #1 in power (i was #2) I had moved all my cavalry from a counter stack to invade wang kong and take some wonders and easy cities but then the invading stack of 20 trebs plus about 80 other medieval units crushed my 16 or so riflemen with too much of a leftover stack and cavalry too far away that I gave up on the game.

In my other games though I did notice something I wasn't sure about. How do you guys play sea starts? My normal game is worker->settler (or stall/warrior until growth depending on growth rate/production ratio) but with sea starts it seems maybe you should start building work boats after the initial worker as you get pretty fast tech and growth and can catch up later with the settler.

If start with Fishing and got Fish (any kind, with Barbs Ocean Fish never can't be pillaged, with FIN leader Coastal Fish is better), Workboat (max hammers, Forested Plain hill best if possible)->(2nd Workboat with max hammers after growth to size 2 if 2nd Fish available)->worker->warrior(s)->at size 3 Settler (usually. depends what is there, sometimes I go size 2 settler without any warrior). This gives some increase in commerce and allow to get early worker techs faster. (chance to get Copper/Horse spot faster).
But thats me... who has 97,5% of cities coastal

elmurcis said:

If start with Fishing and got Fish (any kind, with Barbs Ocean Fish never can't be pillaged, with FIN leader Coastal Fish is better), Workboat (max hammers, Forested Plain hill best if possible)->(2nd Workboat with max hammers after growth to size 2 if 2nd Fish available)->worker->warrior(s)->at size 3 Settler (usually. depends what is there, sometimes I go size 2 settler without any warrior). This gives some increase in commerce and allow to get early worker techs faster. (chance to get Copper/Horse spot faster).
But thats me... who has 97,5% of cities coastal

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thanks. I tried work boats first once or twice but I kind of liked worker first efficient as you can still make improvements with the non fishing tech while the work boats are being built that add value vs doing nothing until the work boats are built. Or maybe it isn't as efficient but less boring so I thought it was better!

I almost always go worker -> warrior(s) -> Settler (@3) -> Settler (whip)
Sometimes if I have mining I'll go worker -> worker (chop) -> warrior(s) -> Settler (@3) (chopx2) -> Settler (chop/whip)
If I'm seaside and have Fishing and a better tile to go for than on land I'll go workboat -> worker -> warrior -> Settler (@3)

Main consistency is stopping warrior production as soon as I hit 3 pop and then making 2 settlers. From there I'll get back to 3 or 4 pop in my capital and make another ~2 workers but once writing is up I get my extra cities to 3 pop, then they make the settlers/workers.

Immortal rush:

Only settle 1 city in addition to the capital
Research BW
Chop-whip Immortals, conquer as many civs as you can. 3/4 of 1 civ is not much, I assume that you attack too late and with too few Immortals, really max. out the production, if you whip 1 Immortal you get a 2nd from the OF, then chop a Forest, again 2 Immortals, try to get 8-10 and simply keep building them and conquer. The capital only needs to stay happy, so you can whip it down to size 3 or 4. Whipping Immortals directly before they're finished gives you OF- if you play with BUG or BUFFY, like that you get to Alpha. Once you have Alpha you can either Oracle Currency or build Research but Alpha and Currency counter the economical problems of the harsh expansion. If you play Darius you have FIN-Cottages, spam those so only improve the and then build Cottages everywhere, Farms are only useful if a city i. e. only has FPs as but no real source like Corn, Wheat, Cows, Pigs or Rice.

Learn to manage your cities well and improve your economical skills. If you have problems with Conquest you probably whip too much, leave defenders in cities that don't need Garrisons and regarding economy I wrote a guide, you find it in my signature, it's very short and only informs about the economical options, it's just an advice to use all of them, economy in CIV is difficult and learning to manage it needs a good understanding and practice.

Expand to more cities than you'd do on a standard sized map. If 6-7 cities i. e. are "normal" on a standard sized map, then expand to 10-11 on Large. Those are 1 AD values but from very strong maps, so i. e. 5 cities on standard 'til 1AD or 7-8 cities on Large 'til 1AD is good if the start is weaker or if the map is generally weak.

Seraiel said:

Immortal rush:

Only settle 1 city in addition to the capital
Research BW
Chop-whip Immortals, conquer as many civs as you can. 3/4 of 1 civ is not much, I assume that you attack too late and with too few Immortals, really max. out the production, if you whip 1 Immortal you get a 2nd from the OF, then chop a Forest, again 2 Immortals, try to get 8-10 and simply keep building them and conquer. The capital only needs to stay happy, so you can whip it down to size 3 or 4. Whipping Immortals directly before they're finished gives you OF- if you play with BUG or BUFFY, like that you get to Alpha. Once you have Alpha you can either Oracle Currency or build Research but Alpha and Currency counter the economical problems of the harsh expansion. If you play Darius you have FIN-Cottages, spam those so only improve the and then build Cottages everywhere, Farms are only useful if a city i. e. only has FPs as but no real source like Corn, Wheat, Cows, Pigs or Rice.

Learn to manage your cities well and improve your economical skills. If you have problems with Conquest you probably whip too much, leave defenders in cities that don't need Garrisons and regarding economy I wrote a guide, you find it in my signature, it's very short and only informs about the economical options, it's just an advice to use all of them, economy in CIV is difficult and learning to manage it needs a good understanding and practice.

Expand to more cities than you'd do on a standard sized map. If 6-7 cities i. e. are "normal" on a standard sized map, then expand to 10-11 on Large. Those are 1 AD values but from very strong maps, so i. e. 5 cities on standard 'til 1AD or 7-8 cities on Large 'til 1AD is good if the start is weaker or if the map is generally weak.

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My issue with immortal rush has been economy crashes due to far away cities. I have played some games where I wiped out 2 civs with immortal rush starting 1200 bc (with like 15 immortals by then) so I have got my game up to speed I think in terms of quickly amassing a huge army of immortals. However, even after losses due to war, the new size of the empire given speed of opponent expansion was too costly. Do you guys raze cities? Maybe I just need to raze the far cities to deal with this issue?

I have had some success in recent games including a very winnable game (bee-lined guilds and cataphract rush) that I may still yet abandon because of AP annoyance. (I am playing justinian, I captured the AP but I still don't win control and due to religions its basically impossible for me to attack the most ripe targets and until I couldn't finish off hannibal who had the AP)

It is possible to attack with immortals/chariots much sooner than 1200BC. If you amass 15 immortals first, you have waited too long. 1000BC is a nice target for HA rushing, and Immortals could be doable by 2000BC if you are fortunate with location of horses.

As you experienced, the problem with these early and overpowering rushes is the economic crash. It WILL come, so you need to handle it one way or another. A key target is to get to Currency, any way you can. Failgold, capture gold, pillage, OF-abuse, building research (obviously only after Alpha) and so on.

Generally I don't raze cities, I hate doing that, but if it's truly crap or would add too much costs to an already struggling economy (you can see the soon-to-be maintenance costs by hovering over it in the city screen, before you choose whether to keep the city or not), you may of course raze the thing. At least you will get some capture gold, and probably lose some units.

That's another aspect to keep in mind with a crashing economy btw: don't build more units (or very few). Each one adds further costs, and if you have stopped warring and are just trying to recover the economy, then you need to focus on buildings/wonders and research/wealth instead of more units.

Once you get Currency, you suddenly have a lot of new tools in the kitbag. Build Wealth, sell techs for gold, sell resources for gold, and of course twice as many trade routes, which alone helps more than you may think, particularly if you have foreign trade routes.

I still find I have to disband units too often and my tech really falls behind plus DoWs come as others start to catch up in military power. Currency is the target but I think last time the crash came as I was researching it! Ouch! I used to start the rush sooner but I found it was sometimes hard to wipe out an entire civ nearby so in terms of military, amassing a lot and going by 1200bc or so was much more successful and less dependent on the dice. I found 1200 is early enough I'm still mostly going against archers so immortals are better than HA in that scenario anyways.

So my game finished, won a Cultural victory in 1912, could have gone for dom/conquest but I get lazy on Huge maps. I killed my western neighbor, Sitting Bull, quickly and was declared on by Mansa Musa to my North. (Sitting Bull peace vassaled to him during our war, bringing him in.) Took a few of Mansa's cities and he capped. Later went to fight Babylon with Mansa and France's support, took ~5 cities, including the dominating Jewish holy city, and he capped. I got up to 35 cities with 2 vassals while everyone else was between 9-20. Space race victory would have been easy from here, dom/conquest wouldn't be too difficult either, but as I said, lazy me.

The other continent was being dominated by Shaka, he declared on me once with more than double my power, but with airships doing constant recon I found and took out his navy before it landed.

I didn't see it being too different than winning on Standard map with ~7 players. Just the early game REXing over teching and too many wonders. Didn't plan to fight until I my city count brought me a tech advantage over time, then pushed with Maces/trebs while my main tech advantage, Knights, was finishing up and would give me a clean kill.

I'm sure Pangaea's and Seraiel's choice of immortal rush would do better, but I'm not comfortable enough with that style yet for the same reasons you found yourself falling behind.

Note: maybe my game went smoothly because Mansa was nearby and liked me. All those tech trades helped me more than the neighbors on my continent.

InovA said:

I didn't see it being too different than winning on Standard map with ~7 players.

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while everyone else was between 9-20.

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You will see the problem as soon as one of the AIs has 30-40 cities halfway the game.

Nice! I think I am getting pretty close I just have some tweaking to do. And not make mistakes relating to the stupid AP.

InovA said:

So my game finished, won a Cultural victory in 1912, could have gone for dom/conquest but I get lazy on Huge maps. I killed my western neighbor, Sitting Bull, quickly and was declared on by Mansa Musa to my North. (Sitting Bull peace vassaled to him during our war, bringing him in.) Took a few of Mansa's cities and he capped. Later went to fight Babylon with Mansa and France's support, took ~5 cities, including the dominating Jewish holy city, and he capped. I got up to 35 cities with 2 vassals while everyone else was between 9-20. Space race victory would have been easy from here, dom/conquest wouldn't be too difficult either, but as I said, lazy me.

The other continent was being dominated by Shaka, he declared on me once with more than double my power, but with airships doing constant recon I found and took out his navy before it landed.

I didn't see it being too different than winning on Standard map with ~7 players. Just the early game REXing over teching and too many wonders. Didn't plan to fight until I my city count brought me a tech advantage over time, then pushed with Maces/trebs while my main tech advantage, Knights, was finishing up and would give me a clean kill.

I'm sure Pangaea's and Seraiel's choice of immortal rush would do better, but I'm not comfortable enough with that style yet for the same reasons you found yourself falling behind.

Note: maybe my game went smoothly because Mansa was nearby and liked me. All those tech trades helped me more than the neighbors on my continent.

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