SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

Zhary · May 3, 2016

Deckhand said:
"is the superior" was a phrase used by Attacko.

Spoiler :

Fact: troytheface wrote several amusing posts featuring Attacko's "strategy" guides
Fact: They were one of the best (funniest) things on the forum
Fact: Attacko was the greatest civ player that ever lived
Fact: Amphibious Elephants are the superior

The evidence is clear - Attacko will never be forgotten.

Spoiler :

Remembered for:
is the superior
amphibious elephants
ice archers
FACTS
the evidence is clear

eight years ago: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=276366

Thx for telling me about al fun thing on this forum that was here before I get around.

Ronnie1 said:
Pottery before Mining > BW produces a settler before we know where copper is. I don't think I like that option.

Not really if we impove fur before deer bw will be in just 1 turn after the settler. Otherwisethe settler will be 1 turn earlier with 3 turns to bw. 3 turns is still a rather normal walking time so we can change the settling location in last minut if we want to.

nocho · May 3, 2016

kcd_swede said:
Maybe we should move the units and make a save, so our start discussion doesn't go too far before we know all we'll want to and be able to know before we make an action plan?

We'll get to that.

As we can't do much else for the next 5 days, I think it's good to talk a bit about general strategy and possible ideas. In my experience once the real save is available the overall goal gets out of sight too quickly with all talk about when and where to max whip overflow this or that item. Sure nothing is set in stone, but some general idea won't hurt. If it's "kill-em-all :aargh:

" that'll be fine too, but maybe the pros and cons of AP, space and hitchhiking could be explored a bit as well.

Deckhand said:
"is the superior" was a phrase used by Attacko.

Yeah, ice archers were they way to go, weren't they?

The phrase I referred to which puzzled me a bit was this one though:

No point trying to guess did he or didn't he at this point.

But I guess it somehow referred to the mapmaker.

kcd_swede said:
Doing the AP fast means an all-in strategy that is not advisable in sgotm's,

Wasn't that hindu-only SGOTM rather brilliantly won with AP victories? I don't think it's an all-in strategy at all if the game goes to railroad. It's all-in on BOTMs if you want an early AD or even BC victory. Here it might be just the quick way out after connecting the railroad. We have at least 1000 years more to play with.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we must go this way or decide now on anything, I just think it's worthwhile to contemplate various possible and not unlikely strategies before we get bogged down by micro. Straight conquest may be the obvious road to victory, but IMO we should think possible shortcuts here to be borderline competitive.

nocho · May 3, 2016

Zhary said:
Not really if we impove fur before deer bw will be in just 1 turn after the settler.

But surely we must improve deer before fur! Food trumps everything else nearly always, but especially in the early stages.

Zhary · May 3, 2016

If we slow build the settler on size 3 deer vs fur will be 2 hammers for 3 gold so fur is a better yeild if one think of them as 1 to 1.

Ronnie1 · May 3, 2016

The AP is intriguing for sure. Timing of votes tends to be a little limiting I think. We should have plenty of time to manipulate the AI to get the numbers right.

Why see how fast we can get a settler out if we then nerf that idea a bit for earlier commerce? This doesn't make sense to me. Especially since we don't really have time to build a granary or cottages in the given time frame.

kcd_swede · May 4, 2016

Ronnie1 said:
The AP is intriguing for sure. Timing of votes tends to be a little limiting I think. We should have plenty of time to manipulate the AI to get the numbers right.

Why see how fast we can get a settler out if we then nerf that idea a bit for earlier commerce? This doesn't make sense to me. Especially since we don't really have time to build a granary or cottages in the given time frame.

We'd also like to se the lay of the land - the value of earliest settler may be greater or lesser depending on many map variables. So it good for hypothetical discusion.

Food is better than 1:1 if whipping is managed properly. That said, in certain situations the order or timing of things like production finishes and tech finishes and tile improved/worker turns can make up for that small benefit food has over commerce and production. IOW, micromanagement will be required to determine what we gain and what we lose by fur first versus deer first. At this stage of the game, it should be pretty easy to test.

BTW: if you want the test game into BUFFY, save the wb file from the test game, then load the BUFFY mod and start scenario using that wb file you saved. Save the game and viola! you have the test map saved in a BUFFY saved game file.

I must admit I haven't looked at the test game, and haven't even read the game parameters since several weeks ago. I need to do my homework too. :blush:

Zhary · May 4, 2016

kcd_swede said:
BTW: if you want the test game into BUFFY, save the wb file from the test game, then load the BUFFY mod and start scenario using that wb file you saved. Save the game and viola! you have the test map saved in a BUFFY saved game file.

Great

thanks for the tip and I that already have done my own tetsgame.

Another positive side with pottery first is that it accually could mean that we get the second worker out earlier(if we build one after the first settler and gran). this is because we could store up to 29 hammers in a gran while waiting for the city to grow to size 3 and fill the food box at size 4. With the settler out on turn 32 the second worker could be out by a combined chop/whip in just 1 turn.

nocho · May 4, 2016

Good to have professional mapmakers on board!

From the main menu, the only way to load a WBSave is to put it in the Saves\Worldbuilder folder?? Couldn't find a way to browse my folders for a WBSave, if not from WorldBuilder itself.

Zhary said:
If we slow build the settler on size 3 deer vs fur will be 2 hammers for 3 gold so fur is a better yeild if one think of them as 1 to 1.

Deer is 5f1h, fur 2f1h4c, so it would be 3f vs 4c. IIRC the traditional rule of thumb is 2f=3h=5c, so by that improving deer first surely must be better.

Zhary · May 4, 2016

No i dont speak about total yield but what a camp does. If slow building a settler at size 3 we won't get 1 camp out before cap is at size 3 while we could improve both camp before the settler is done thats why its 2h vs 3c.

nocho · May 4, 2016

Sorry, I don't follow what you're doing in what order, so I don't get 2h vs 3c.

In my test I settle t1 and grow to size 3 on t23 and have then just finished deer and wheat. How does that compare to your initial proceedings?

Deckhand · May 4, 2016

Well, that was easy. :thumbsup:

I had made a backup copy of all my desktop files on an external drive. I just copied the Firaxis Games folder. BtS BUFFY 3.19.003 works!. I was able to start botm105. :borg:

I could have done this a year ago! :hammer2:

Doesn't solve Steam or vanilla/warlords issues. But I'm good to go for BOTM/SGOTM.

Spoiler :

nocho · May 4, 2016

Deckhand said:
But I'm good to go for BOTM/SGOTM.

Excellent! :goodjob:

Zhary · May 4, 2016

nocho said:
In my test I settle t1 and grow to size 3 on t23 and have then just finished deer and wheat. How does that compare to your initial proceedings?

Something like that. first worker move would be improve wheat and then to a camp site so it doesnt really matter where we settle and if we work unimproved deer or wheat.

kcd_swede · May 5, 2016

Deckhand said:
But I'm good to go for BOTM/SGOTM.

Ronnie1 · May 5, 2016

Zhary said:
Something like that. first worker move would be improve wheat and then to a camp site so it doesnt really matter where we settle and if we work unimproved deer or wheat.

I am confused also, we will work whatever unimproved tile as you say because it doesn't really matter, until 1 of those is improved, I get that part.

Once we have the "option" of working a second tile, we can compare the difference of what those 2 tiles could provide. As nocho pointed out, the camped Fur is superior in pure total (7 > 6) resources, but for settler building, the camped Deer has the (6 > 3) applicable resource advantage. What we give up are the :commerce:

of the camped Fur earlier.

The real question for me, why would we go Pottery before BW if we don't have time to build cottages or build a granary immediately? Finding copper for second city site sooner seems a higher priority to me.

nocho · May 6, 2016

The save will be available on Sunday, right? Who's gonna make the opening moves? Preliminary roster?

kcd_swede · May 6, 2016

nocho said:
The save will be available on Sunday, right? Who's gonna make the opening moves? Preliminary roster?

I just logged in to ask the same thing. Great minds think alike! Which btw is a disadvantage when it comes to sgotms. So I'll try to be more contrary.

Deckhand hasn't played a turn of Xotm like since win8 became win10... so I vote our dear captain make the prelim moves and then make a roster and then make a test map and then... well, we'll think of something.

Ronnie1 · May 6, 2016

kcd_swede said:
I just logged in to ask the same thing. Great minds think alike! Which btw is a disadvantage when it comes to sgotms. So I'll try to be more contrary.

Deckhand hasn't played a turn of Xotm like since win8 became win10... so I vote our dear captain make the prelim moves and then make a roster and then make a test map and then... well, we'll think of something.

Way to be supportive kcd!

nocho · May 6, 2016

kcd_swede said:
Great minds think alike!

Mediocre ones too! :lol:

Fine with Deck taking first hand.

Deckhand · May 6, 2016

OK, I do my best leading when pushed from behind

Partial Pre Play Plan

A. Do we have someone that can analyze the Demographics to gain insight into the AIs and map?

B. Pre Settle exploration, partial turns
first moves:
Warrior NE
Scout SE, SE
Missionary NW
Post Screenshots and Save
discuss

C. Settle where agreed, follow micro from testers, explore

SGOTM 23 - Unusual Suspects

Skalman

Deity

Deity

Skalman

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Skalman

Deity

Skalman

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Deity

Skalman

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Deity

Jag är Viking!½

Deity

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

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