Von Münchhausen II

Well done, I think you still need to put up the save, Brichals. No, it's there now!

Good to see things heating up. Being tied into war against Elizabeth is fine. I've never personally agreed to a request of another civ to go to war, so I'm unaware of the mechanics. Does a reminder follow after 10 turns, asking you if you want to declare?
I assume you can still ask some other civ if they want to give you money for declaring?

I remember declaring twice in the previous SG without asking anyone for money, then a bit later Grandad declared, but only after asking some other civ payment for doing so. I would have appreciated someone telling me then I was missing out on chances!

I think it can be an immense help to get a CS on your side in a situation like this, even only clearing up the fog of war in such a central area can be a help.
Yes, stables are a must build, I think, not in the capital, but in our towns that have a few stable resources they will speed up things. They will not give a discount on building elephants like they do on horses. If Naresuan's are buildable, does this mean our horses are obsolete and cannot be buillt anymore? That would be a pity, but I think that's the way it is.

When you agree to join a war the other guy will come back to you in 10 turns, maybe a little more, and ask you if you still want to join. Then you have the choice yes or no. Yes declares war, no will give you a big diplo hit presumably.

I'm not sure how it works when a few people ask you at intervals. You have to declare when they ask you to, not before or after I believe.

Asking a civ to give you money for declaring is an instant declaration I believe.

So I'm not sure you can do this. You can't navigate away from the offer screen.

I assume you can still ask some other civ if they want to give you money for declaring?

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I'm not sure if horses and elephants are exclusive. It's better if not.

Brichals said:

Asking a civ to give you money for declaring is an instant declaration I believe.

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Yes it is, I can confirm that. It also means you can only ask money from one civ, because then you've done your declaration.

It would somewhat surprise if we had to wait for Ramesses to call again before declaring, I thought we wouldn't be in breach of any agreement if we declared like now? I wonder if someone can shed some more light on this...

So with the Oracle hopefully coming in in one turn we have a policy to pick. Finishing the Liberty tree would give us a free person. What do we want to do with that? Get us a scientist to give us Chivalry? Otherwise Chivalry will be in in 25 turns or so, enabling us to build a few more cheap horses first. I'm not sure what the best thing is, I haven't looked at other possibilities with the free person.

I'd bulb chivalry personally. Hagia Sophia slingshot is another option but I'd rather get chivalry faster. Most civs are medieval now, and that could mean pikemen coming soon.

I just checked, you can still build horses when you have chivalry and the upgrade to NE costs 100 gold.

I've read somewhere that you have to declare when they ask you and not before. Maybe the others might know something, it seems like this is the case in my games, maybe even you get a diplo hit if you declare at the wrong time. It's one of those weird diplomacy things like liberating a civ then they hate you for it.

First off, we have no coin to upgrade more than two units. If we have a pair of Nphants, we can kill off Lizzies army. But we don't want that, Rammy will take her cities.

So a very sticky position. We have to think HOW we are using our units and when.

I wouldn't like to take York with what we have, but Egypt would be happy to.

I'm thinking a sneakier attack on the city they settle beforehand next to our borders...not a bad city in itself, but on a hill. Woul'd save us a settler, I guess.

How many turns is Theo after what we're researching? Doubleshot never killed you, just the AI!.

Nice job Brichals. We should throw a turn back into that library every now and then. I don't know when the decay starts. I want to say 10 turns?

I was building that for the NC, but since we went with the Oracle, I think a scientist bulb for Chivalry is the best approach. It's a long haul there without the NC.

You can still build horsemen at Chivalry. Horsemen don't go obsolete until Metallurgy. I think the smaller cities should build horsemen to upgrade and the cap can build NE. The NE is 120 . The capital can handle that, but it would probably take too long in the other cities. I bet you could seize a city with 3 or 4 of them right now, but pretty soon we'll need twice that many to withstand the ranged attacks, units and attacks on the city.

I think we have to wait for Egypt to ask to avoid the declaration hit? If so, that might be useful if we want to declare on Gandhi.

gozpel said:

I'm thinking a sneakier attack on the city they settle beforehand next to our borders...not a bad city in itself, but on a hill. Woul'd save us a settler, I guess.

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Do you mean we should go for Hastings? That seems a good idea, it has lots of gems.
What brings us to another thing: I don't mind if someone pays 50 gold to let us pass through Egypt's lands. At the moment we have a hard time selling our stuff, if we meet richer civs beyond Egypt the 50 gold will have earnt itself back very easily, even if it's only for selling borders to newly met civs.

NotSure said:

Nice job Brichals. We should throw a turn back into that library every now and then. I don't know when the decay starts. I want to say 10 turns?

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It's 50 turns for buildings, 10 turns for units.
Yes, I agree then about bulbing Chivalry. If we can still build horses, that's an advantage. Once our smaller towns have stables and a few more civilians the production of horses should be reasonably okay there.
I prefer building units while the defenses of our opponents are still weak. Something like Hastings had a defense of 9 last time I looked? Better not wait til every town has walls, castles and more people, because when it gets defense 30 or 40 or so it's so much tougher, maybe undoable without artillery.
What I mean is, I prefer to postpone the National College and rather go straight after a few opponents' towns. We've got the edge now, we've cornered Elizabeth, mainly due to Brichals' diplomatic initiatives. We've also got the units - fingers crossed for the Oracle - so we should use the opportunity.

Oh yeah, what I constantly forget to say; all win conditions are enabled for this game. I think it means, if conquest is stalling somewhat, we might have to settle for a diplomatic win.
At least I don't think there's any way to avoid elections, please somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
I wouldn't consider that a cop out or something if we have to settle for that. The financial bonuses the AI enjoys on this level are such that beating mr. Rich AI is still an achievement. You wouldn't say it just now, but once the AI has markets they're starting to make 100-200 gold per turn, and there are always one or two who are making a concerted effort. Anyway, that's for later.

I asked the question about the 10 turns war declaration in the newbie questions and somebody answered he thought it didn't matter when you declared. That's what I thought myself, but I'll leave it up to Gozpel.
Did you have a look at the save, Gozpel? I wouldn't mind if you could post beforehand what you're going to build roughly and where you're going with our units. It looks like I have to take this after you, so what you're doing will no doubt affect my set.

Public holiday here today, so I've been rather busy. Checking the save now and will give some comments soon. But again I'm outvoted and we're going to bulb Chivalry and that's fine.

I will look at what we have, comparing that to Lizzy and Ramesses, talking units here. IF we can take Hastings, I would like that. She plopped that city down just to intimidate us, but we didn't react right then, so her loss. The denouncation came at a very good time, so both Ramesses and Ghandi will forget that we don't accept beggars. If you can't get a penny out of the AI, why would you give any? That's why I dislike "Friendship agreements", they are one way street and not in our favor.

Only way to stop votes is to raze UN, I think.

Ok, Hastings is surrounded by hills, except one tile, so that would be a suicide. Lizzy is also sending an archer down there it seems, so it would be even harder with just cavalry units.

I suggest we look at York instead, flatland mostly and pretty good spot for us.

The common wardeclaration doesn't have to happen when they ask us, they will be as happy if we declare war now. But we have one horse atm and he can kill that archer, still, will that achieve anything? When we go for Hastings, she will have another 3 archers there, I'm sure.

So, let's look at York. Much easier for us to get to and with Egypt harassing her other town Canterbury, I think we can take York. But not in my turns, so I will set up a handful of Nfants for Optional...I really think that's the best way. I COULD throw in what we have at the end of my turns, but we better be strategic about it.

Seeing the builds as they are in our cities, I think I can conjure half a dozen units during my turn.

Half a dozen Nfants, is that tempting enough? Surely there will be pikes or spears around, the AI have a nose for that, but we have a couple of archers that can hurt them too. So better take York before she get LB's and we can sue for peace for Hastings.

What research is next? We either go looking for iron or walking the seas, both paths will take some 7-8 turns. Personally, I like iron.

I will buy OB with Egypt, he met someone before and we would like to know who that might be.

Almost forgot, we are building one stable atm, we don't want to build more until we finished our plan. 2 stables are 3 horses -> NF's.

Gimme your ideas, I play tomorrow.

I think Optional was planning that we could ask Ghandi if he will give us anything if we declare so we can kind of get a double bonus. Last time I asked him he would not give us anything though, he was at war with England then, but is not now. Maybe that makes a difference. Otherwise I think it's safer to declare when Egypt ask. Should be in 3-4 turns, they are never exactly on time in my experience. I think sometimes they don't even ask you again. I thinks it's not a hit if you declare before, but possiblly a bigger +ve if you declare when they ask.

I also think you can get 5-6 units, Sukhothai has surprisingly high production and Muang is fairly good with the stable. We do still need to progress a bit with the library there as NotSure said. A turn here or there.

Hastings and York are both good targets. For iron or optics I am Ok with either.

I hope Lizzie doesn't have pikes. She just reached medieval 6 turns ago or so and I hope it was going through naval techs or something other than Civil Service.

Ghandi is in a peace-treaty right now, but I'll check later.

"Turn 72
Elizabeth makes peace with Ghandi and sets down Canterbury."

If Lizzy have spears or pikes, it will be harder, but we've got 2 archers that can hurt them enough, NF's are pretty strong. They can kill a spear outright in good position, but will lose badly, but not die against a pike. That's my experience. Prolly a 3-7 or 8 roll against a pike, more like 9-3 against a weak spear, on good terrain. But a hurt pike, is a bad pike.

Ghandi might still want us to attack England even if he has made peace now. We can offer it as a trade item. He didn't want us to join in when he was at war though so I don't know, never know really with strange AIs.

Mostly I've been able to get 200 gold for a war declaration (after the AI offering 150 + Open Borders), so that would be the sole reason for declaring on our own terms. If that money isn't there it doesn't matter.
I'm not sure if we can even ask Egypt in this case, maybe cheesy if it would work...

If the AI asks for a sum of money because we're 'friends' I often give it. in this case we would probably have been able to get it back easily by trading. A declaration of friendship + having mutual friends still outweighs a single refusal for help, of course.

Sukhothai was still working on a water mill, if I'm not mistaken, we could finish that first.

I'm okay with any 'target', if you prefer York to Hastings, then York it is. Be mindful that the pubs there close as early as 10, so you need to hurry for a pint!
Yes, spears and pikes will be a pain, some archers will be welcome if you decide to build them.

Just before g'night for me, no more Friendship deal, PLEASE!!!! They don't help you at all on this map! So forget about that!

I'll check with Ghandi in a couple of turns, but we rather upgrade with the little money we have.

Giving we are so much out of sync, I give it some more time,

But watermill really, compared to a half a dozen horses? What are you thinking, Optional?

Target for me is York (or Yorik in old Norse) Being a viking myself, I like this.

gozpel said:

Just before g'night for me, no more Friendship deal, PLEASE!!!! They don't help you at all on this map! So forget about that!

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That's okay, I won't sign them. In a way it makes things easier if we don't sign them, it's less to check.

gozpel said:

But watermill really, compared to a half a dozen horses? What are you thinking, Optional?

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Don't look at me, I didn't start it! I find the watermill pretty useless anyway. It mainly gives food, but you can only build it on a fresh water site, so you can only build it in places that are already foody anyway. I have a rant somewhere on this site about this.

But a watermill will enable Sukhothai to work the gems and quarries while still having a reasonable growth. NotSure started the watermill, it might just be 2 turns until completion. I was only reminding you about that. If you don't finish it, I will, I always like to carry on where my team mates left things.
This also means, if you're carrying troops to York, I'll try lay siege to that, if you carry troops to Hastings, I'll try to crash the gates there.

gozpel said:

Target for me is York (or Yorik in old Norse) Being a viking myself, I like this.

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A viking, huh? Hmm, being from the north of the Netherlands, I can say you just pillaged our lands. But yeah, you guys founded Yorvik, so if you now want to attack your own holdings for a change, that'll be nice!!!

All joking of course, that last bit. If you haven't played your set yet, Gozpel, good luck with it!

Yes a watermill would effectively give us 4 and 1 base as it allows us to switch a river farm for a stone. It costs us 2 gpt but with modifiers to our base yield it's not that much. Or do buildings have maintenance inflation, dunno? Or it gives us a free spot for a specialist later. I think it's mostly always worth it but then I'm sure there are reasons for and against.

EDIT: just thought, not sure how much gold the stone gives so that might be wrong

Everything looks ok, except that we are last in military. That will change.

Turn1: Oracle is built in Sukhotai -> worker 2 turns. Use the policy to fill out Liberty and we have a scientist.
He will have to a turn to perform his miracle.

Turn2: Hanging Garden is built somewhere. We are now allies with Warzaw, thanks to the Oracle and we are at 8 happy,
Thanks to their whales.

We finish Currency -> BW, I want to know where the iron is.

I sent a worker to build a stonequarry near SiSatch, but the borders expanded to the gold, so worker goes there.
Buy OB from Egypt for 50g and move scout south through his lands. English archer is still lurking outside the cap.

Upgrade a horse to elephant for 100g, strange things can happen in Civ.

Turn3: Our golden age ends. India is now friends with someone we haven't met and our Friendship agreement ends,
I do not renew it.

Turn4: Egypt asks if we still want a war with England and we do.

Cap worker -> NE, worker will mine the forrested hill.
Muang stable -> horseman.

BW done -> IW in 5 turns.

Turn5: Our scout meet a friendly Japan, sell him OB for 50. Next turn we meet Capetown and get 15 gold.



Lizzy is a cunning vixen, she somehow snuck a settler down south, I wonder how?



Turn6: IT we meet Russia, I trade OB and Ivory, for 240g and OB.
SiSatch horse -> horse.

I checked with Ghandi every turn, but he is not interested in a war, not even for 500g
So I put 250 into Sydney or we lose them in a couple of turns.

Egypt is bombarding Canterbury, but I'm not interested in that city.

Turn7: We meet a pretty broke America, they must've spent it all on that Great Wall.
Gold is connected, we're back at 7 happy, I think I hold on to that for now as everyone is pretty poor.



Scarcher takes a potshot at english warrior, for 6hp. Upgrade another horse to NE.

Turn8: IW in, no iron around for us, only India have a couple of sources near their borders. Start sailing 2t.
Might as well get Optics too, so we can see what's down behind the mountain range.

Muang horse -> horse.

OB-deals are over, renew with Egypt and India for 43g, all they wanted to pay. What are they up to?
Ah, they are both sooking because we didn't give them free money.

New policy and I open up Piety for cheaper policies in the future.

Elephant kills english warrior and guess what? York is defended by a pike lol. Ah well.

turn9: IT, trade OB's with Washington.

Sukhotai NE -> NE. Upgrade another horse.

Resell gems to Ghandi for 209g, he doesn't like us anymore.

Turn10: Horses to Ghandi ends, he only want to pay 117g for 3, I leave that to Optional.

Sailing -> Optics, I'm curious if there is another CS down there.

We have 4 NE's, with 2 more coming in 4 turns. At least we are not last in military anymore.

Nice one. Things are coming on nicely. That demographics is not bad as we all know we are short by 1 or 2 cities but we had no places to put them. Now we convert soldiers to cities and we are in a good position.

Liz put Coventry in a good spot for us. She has infiltrated settlers now? As we have no iron and there are pikes around maybe we get a couple of archers or a pike?? If a pike is garrsioned does the city get the bonus vs horses? I would have expected not.

It seems Ghandi really was annoyed with us. Egypt I expect because of our wonders and proximity but maybe our joint war will help. I should have given Ghandi the money when he asked, but actually I think I ended up using that money to buy allies on Sydney from England. So maybe I couldn't. Anyway it's excellent that we found more civs to trade with now.

Hmm some interesting things have been happening!

Not back home yet so can't look a saves etc.

Does Gandhi dislike us due to warmonger status?

I'm very pleased we finished liberty. Oracle was good call. Especially as it gave us cs influence.

This being a Pangaea plus map means that a lot of the unmet cs's will be on islands scattered around the coast so optics is a needed to find them. I think we may want to start our run into education soon. We should tryst o time it with a policy coming due or we shoot ourselves in the foot waiting for our Wats.

On the war front it would be nice to get some siege. Anyone selling iron? If a cs is found with iron then consider gifting them?

I can see our elephants turning in to amazing units later in the game if they survive. So look after them!