Hebrew civilization. Play as Solomon!

I have no problem with Hebrews, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religious group. I do have a problem with people who misrepresent fiction for fact. I note you mention not fact, but make bold statements with no mention of source or anything. You also confuse Hebrews with Israelites, which are two different categories. The inhabitants of ancient, like modern, Israel weren´t all Jews, so your suggestion that I be antisemite has no foundation.

I assume you are referring to the First Temple, about which very little is known. Not even it´s exact location is certain, as it was completely destroyed. So, stating that it´s build cost equivalates something in the range of $ 3 billion dollars (of whatever year) is nothing but wild speculation. But let´s take this specualtion serously for a moment. How much do you think the Great Pyramid (a much larger structure) would have cost? Surely that would be a multiplication of that $ 3 billion. It makes one wonder where Solomon got such a huge amount of bullion, in an age that didn´t even know currency (which was first used in the Middle East in Lydia, in the 8th century BC). Also ofcourse, the First Temple stood for approx 4 centuries, and was built over a millennium after the Great Pyramid - which it still stands.

Now about monotheism. You seem to think the ancient Israelites of Solomon´s times were all virtuous Jews. Well, they were not. Just check your Bible. In fact, Orthodox Judaism hadn´t even been formulated yet when the Temple was built. That happened only after the Babylonian exile. You know, the Babylonians that destroyed the Temple.

In that same Bible (actually the Torah) you can find that King Solomon requested the aid of King Hiram of Tyre to provide both the quality materials and skilled craftsmen. It doesn´t mention payment of any kind, merely the request of aid. Now if Solomon really had the equivalent of $ 3 billion dollars (of whatever year), surely he could have simply bought (in this case bartered for) the materials and hired the skilled craftsmen - which, apparently, weren´t present in Israel.

Once again, the Great Pyramid. This wasn´t built by foreign labour, but by Egyptian craftsmen, who were housed and cared for - and got paid. (There are inscriptions relating to this, including reference to daily rations of bread and beer.) Plus ofcourse, the Great Pyramid was only the first and greatest of a long line of pyramids, that ultimately inspired even the Nubians to built their own Nubian-type pyramids, some 2 centuries after the building of the Temple.
 
So asking for help, somehow makes you smaller? Perhaps Solomon was asking for materials rather then just marching across and taking them? That seems likes an enlightened leader to me. And whether you paid for them or not, doesnt demean your status or make you less than someone else. Does having slaves build almost your entire civilization make the Egyptians smaller or better than others?
There is quite a bit about the First Temple that is known, what was made of, what was inside of it, etc. Im not sure that the Great Pyramid is even in the standards of the Great Temple, I mean its built of limestone blocks. I know there where casing stones on the outer surface that may have been very valuable, but they are gone for the most part.
You also go to great lengths to suggest that Im calling you anti-Jewish, when all i said was that you must have something against Hebrews...which you then go on to say is different from modern day Israel. I would suggest that you using the term "puny" is not accurate, to say the least. How many times was Egypt conquered? To me, being conquered doesnt make one "puny", it means you got conquered.

The Pyramid at Giza or Khufu, if you will, is the largest, but ot the first built. Those were at Saqqara, which the earliest of these was Pyramid of Djoser. You also seem to imply that, because these people and others made thier achievements first, that some makes them better than the Hebrews who made theirs at a later date. I dont think thats a fair assessment. I mean if you read the Bible, which I do, you would also see that the same people left Egypt and made their way out into the world. Pretty good for a "puny" people to be able to make Egypt let them go. Still, this debate will get us no where, and I have no wish to turn this thread into anything but my personal thanks for making a civilization that I very much respect and admire.

Thanks again for making them and please excuse me for getting into a discussion of other things here.
 
You obviously have issue with the Hebrews, otherwise why such venom. You are dang right Im comparing them to Egypt, because if you look historically at Israel under David and Solomon, they were kicking some serious butt, and then building a Temple to God that is is thought to have at least cost 3 billion dollars. Who knows the actual value? And 3 billion isnt alot of money?? Where the heck do you come from? That was back then...not now. 3 billion in dollars was huge back then...way huge. Hell in the 70's 6 million was considered such a huge amount, that only the govnt, could make the Six million dollar man.
Not to mention how Israel, like Egypt, is one of the very few ancient cultures still here. So why not compare them? And yes Israel got conquered...but they are still around. Most that were taken over were destroyed and gone...and yet they are still here. You can compare them to whomever you want, but that doesnt take away from their accomplishments...Namely The Great Temple, The Ark, spawned 2 of the world's biggest religions(Christianity and Islam)...ya your right...they didnt have much impact.

I tend to agree that she's got some serious irrational issues with Israel. But she's right that ancient Israel wasn't that rich. According to the Bible, Soloman paid the debt he incurred to Hiram, King of Phoenicia, by ceding several northern cities to him. That's pretty embarrassing information, so it's highly unlikely the Bible would have included it if it wasn't true.
 
I disagree with the +10% Gold for Synagogues, the +10% Science should be kept... as historically Ancient Israel (and Modern Israel as well) had a reputation for being innovative (and thus feared) but not feared because they were necessarily wealthy (The Babylonians and Egyptians were much wealthier at their height than Ancient Israel at it's height was).

There were no synagogues in ancient Israel (i.e. First Temple period). The synagogue didn't come into existence as an institution until the Babylonian Exile. The synagogue was, however, a very powerful institution during classical Israel (Second Temple though the closing of the Mishna).

If you want to represent ancient Israel, better ideas would be:

(1) special ability -- build 1 temple in the capital, get a free temple in every city without maintenance cost (reflecting that the Jerusalem Temple centralized cultic worship). That might be too similar to the French bonus, but it would be accurate.

(2) cistern -- replaces granary or walls. Provides +2 food and +5 city defense. Look at the Bible. Israelite cisterns made sieges very difficult, while also providing fresh water in the absence of nearby rivers.

(3) special ability -- a significant "Holy Land" bonus to fighting in your own territory

If ancient Israel extends into classical Israel, then a synagogue or a yeshiva (replaces library & adds culture) might make sense.
 
What I like about this mod is that out of all the civs ppl made for themselves, this is the only one that isn't grossly overpowered :)
even a little underpowered. I like it :>


edit: love koheleths suggestions, they make a lot of sense and also don't overly specialize the hebrew civ (the walls/granary building.. building synagogues in every city is very definitely a cultural civ strat).

However, both giving great walls AND a bonus to fighting in your territory might prove overpowering in defense
 
I agree that it's a bit underpowered, so I changed the Slinger's stats to match the Babylonian Bowman. I also added the Maccabee, overused as it has been, I missed them lol - they replace the Longswordsman, but with same stats. I used the Roman Legion's art.

PS. Those accusing JEELEN of being anti Israel are nubs. He is a history buff, and gets a little excited about erroneous information. Everybody relax :p

PPS. Someone PLEASE make an ancient era scenario! With all the usual players and restricted research would be wicked.. Thanks in advance!
 
Solomon was king in the ancient Kingdom of Israel. The civ is largely based on that ancient kingdom, with an ancient UU as well. The Star of David was not in use then, it's a much more recent symbol, and it didn't begin to represent the Jews as a whole until a few centuries ago, so I don't really see how the Star of David would fit here, although it is, of course, the most recognizable Jewish symbol today.

This is true. Now you could make another CIV called Isreal with Golda as the leader and use the Star of David. I think this would be cool
 
This is true. Now you could make another CIV called Isreal with Golda as the leader and use the Star of David. I think this would be cool
I second that, and vote for Levite ancient UU and maybe Davidka to replace artillery..
 
So asking for help, somehow makes you smaller? Perhaps Solomon was asking for materials rather then just marching across and taking them? That seems likes an enlightened leader to me. And whether you paid for them or not, doesnt demean your status or make you less than someone else. Does having slaves build almost your entire civilization make the Egyptians smaller or better than others?
There is quite a bit about the First Temple that is known, what was made of, what was inside of it, etc. Im not sure that the Great Pyramid is even in the standards of the Great Temple, I mean its built of limestone blocks. I know there where casing stones on the outer surface that may have been very valuable, but they are gone for the most part.
You also go to great lengths to suggest that Im calling you anti-Jewish, when all i said was that you must have something against Hebrews...which you then go on to say is different from modern day Israel. I would suggest that you using the term "puny" is not accurate, to say the least. How many times was Egypt conquered? To me, being conquered doesnt make one "puny", it means you got conquered.

The Pyramid at Giza or Khufu, if you will, is the largest, but ot the first built. Those were at Saqqara, which the earliest of these was Pyramid of Djoser. You also seem to imply that, because these people and others made thier achievements first, that some makes them better than the Hebrews who made theirs at a later date. I dont think thats a fair assessment. I mean if you read the Bible, which I do, you would also see that the same people left Egypt and made their way out into the world. Pretty good for a "puny" people to be able to make Egypt let them go. Still, this debate will get us no where, and I have no wish to turn this thread into anything but my personal thanks for making a civilization that I very much respect and admire.

Thanks again for making them and please excuse me for getting into a discussion of other things here.

Guys there is no reason to argue here. Just compare the Egyptions at thier hight to that have the 'Hebrews' at thier hight and you will find that Egypt was the richer of the two countries comparativly and ruled a larger area. And they had bigger monuments. The Civilations in the Civ games always assume the nations it represent at thier hight or important time in history. Remember it is just a game. Hell I can build the Pyramids as Soloman if I wanted to....um good idea.
 
I wonder if CIV 5 will have the capacity to run over 20 civs at once like CIV 4 did. Well CIV4 with the FFH2 mod?
 
I have no problem with Hebrews, Muslims, Buddhists or any other religious group. I do have a problem with people who misrepresent fiction for fact. I note you mention not fact, but make bold statements with no mention of source or anything. You also confuse Hebrews with Israelites, which are two different categories. The inhabitants of ancient, like modern, Israel weren´t all Jews, so your suggestion that I be antisemite has no foundation.

I assume you are referring to the First Temple, about which very little is known. Not even it´s exact location is certain, as it was completely destroyed. So, stating that it´s build cost equivalates something in the range of $ 3 billion dollars (of whatever year) is nothing but wild speculation. But let´s take this specualtion serously for a moment. How much do you think the Great Pyramid (a much larger structure) would have cost? Surely that would be a multiplication of that $ 3 billion. It makes one wonder where Solomon got such a huge amount of bullion, in an age that didn´t even know currency (which was first used in the Middle East in Lydia, in the 8th century BC). Also ofcourse, the First Temple stood for approx 4 centuries, and was built over a millennium after the Great Pyramid - which it still stands.

Now about monotheism. You seem to think the ancient Israelites of Solomon´s times were all virtuous Jews. Well, they were not. Just check your Bible. In fact, Orthodox Judaism hadn´t even been formulated yet when the Temple was built. That happened only after the Babylonian exile. You know, the Babylonians that destroyed the Temple.

In that same Bible (actually the Torah) you can find that King Solomon requested the aid of King Hiram of Tyre to provide both the quality materials and skilled craftsmen. It doesn´t mention payment of any kind, merely the request of aid. Now if Solomon really had the equivalent of $ 3 billion dollars (of whatever year), surely he could have simply bought (in this case bartered for) the materials and hired the skilled craftsmen - which, apparently, weren´t present in Israel.

Once again, the Great Pyramid. This wasn´t built by foreign labour, but by Egyptian craftsmen, who were housed and cared for - and got paid. (There are inscriptions relating to this, including reference to daily rations of bread and beer.) Plus ofcourse, the Great Pyramid was only the first and greatest of a long line of pyramids, that ultimately inspired even the Nubians to built their own Nubian-type pyramids, some 2 centuries after the building of the Temple.
no one said every single pyramid was built but hebrews and no one said there is the only thing hebrews did is building pyramids
 
A lot of what you say seem legitimate.

Once again, the Great Pyramid. This wasn´t built by foreign labour, but by Egyptian craftsmen, who were housed and cared for - and got paid. (There are inscriptions relating to this, including reference to daily rations of bread and beer.)

Didn't Egyptians use tons and tons and tons of slaves? Like in Joseph's time, and Moses leading his people out of Egypt. I'm pretty sure the Bible said the Jews were slaves, and there were tons of them the Pharaoh used.

Concerning Solomon, he asked for wisdom instead of riches or power, but God gave him those things as well. He was wild and extravagant in his spending, and experienced everything under the sun (I paraphrase from Proverbs and Ecclesiastes). Jews had a hard time in history, but it does seem like, according to their scriptures, they were quite great and renowned during David and Solomon's times.
 
Sorry, the bible isnt a historical document any more than the odyssey is.

+1. You don't have to say sorry though. I'm a big fan of the Iliad and the Odyssey. I'm just more a rational being than others, like you are, I assume.


I find it amusing you use the Hebrew as a civilization. As Hebrew is a language, considered to be Jewish, but from the Middle-east semitic family.
So you mean the Jewish civilization?

What I find the most amusing, is that Solomon, in Turkish, is Suleiman (we have him for the Ottomans!). And in the balance mod, Suleiman has a 33% great leader UA. ^^
 
I have to figure mods out for this game..lol So is the mod downloaded from a menu while the game is on? As I do not see a link to download, nor know where the civ 5 directory is.. Civ 3 was much easier in my opinion, and did not need steam to play it..
 
This is true. Now you could make another CIV called Isreal with Golda as the leader and use the Star of David. I think this would be cool

The best leader for Israel would either be their patriarch Isaac, or King David. Other options would be Abraham, Isaacs (later named Israel) father, or King Solomon the status quo.

So not bad as long as we have no bugs.

Also we should have Unique Unit ARK OF THE COVENANT! That would be awesome!
 
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