2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I did on few occasions already with no luck yet. Team Amazon did won the Multi-Team Demo Game 2 though.
Teching past the mid game
- Thread starter Opies
- Start date
What I meant was focusing my Commerce-cities towards Research-multiplier buildings, while focusing half of my Production-cities towards building Wealth. The latter may seem weak, but all Production-multipliers will be counted before selling off your Hammers for Gold.
You will not have to build Gold-multiplier buildings if you do it this way. That should save you some (a lot, actually) Hammers in the Commerce-cities!
In my Commerce-cities I don't usually build Wealth. After my Libraries etc. have been built in those cities I either train a Worker/Spy/Military Unit or I simply remove my citizens from working Production-tiles and tell them to educate themselves to Scientists instead. Amazingly they comply without even a hint of protest
.Naturally, you could go the other way around: Setting the commerce-slider to 100% Gold, and build Research in your Production-cities. But Research-multipliers come sooner, and are cheaper, than Gold-multipliers...
Yours Sincerely
Kjotleik of Norway
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I think I will give a shot at this specific strategy of not building markets and banks, but instead rely on building wealth in some SP game where I can keep the diplomacy good and avoid being DoWed so I can keep producing wealth in my production centers.
But tell me, what you do in case you need your production for actually produce things? Say you see a neighbor is arming and preparing to invade you. You need to start using your hammers for producing units. Does this means you shut down your research as the money for keeping science slider high are now put in to guns and bayonets and you dont have at all built gold multiplying buildings so lowering the science slider is not giving you much gold? What if you need money for upgrades of old units and you cant use building wealth to get those money?
But tell me, what you do in case you need your production for actually produce things? Say you see a neighbor is arming and preparing to invade you. You need to start using your hammers for producing units. Does this means you shut down your research as the money for keeping science slider high are now put in to guns and bayonets and you dont have at all built gold multiplying buildings so lowering the science slider is not giving you much gold? What if you need money for upgrades of old units and you cant use building wealth to get those money?
Not to mention how late other hammers multiplying buildings than the forges come. Do you wait till factories and power plants to have some decent income and start teching steady at 100%?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
FYI, those space ship winning games ususally have 1 thing in common. They own about 50 to 60% of the land too. IE early wars. So if you are thinking about just builder players, think again. So those same players if they play MP, will likely claim most of the land first before going for space.
But if you want to, come join us in during the next BOTM and throw out a gauntlet. I am quite certain many will pick it up. Chose the VC. It would be fun.
That is some pervert scenario, made only to satisfy the need for winning the game by some specific ways. Generally, a game is played to be won. If a player owns 50-60% of the land, why the hell he would want to spend the next half of the game building welath in his enormous number of cities just to be able to build a spaceship 100 turns after the date at which he could have been proceeded with conquering only few more cities and hit domination?
I am sure that if playing chess with a computer some players can aim for finishing the game with 9 queens only for the show, but this is not the optimal, nor stronger way the game to be played. This is more for show
Htadus
A and L's dad
Perverted huh? 
Actually it is for a type of a show. When we play for a particular VC in xotm, we are not just playing the AI, we are also playing against other human players performance. We all have the same save and 1 chance to get it right.
As for a space game, anyone can win spaceship games, but to win it in 16th or 17th century, you need to do many things a normal monger finds boring and technically difficult to do. You know, like keep a 30-50 city empire in the black and generating about 8000(8k) to 12000 (12k) bpt in 16th century where techs are learned in every 2-4 turns.
This can be done in emperror level regularly and immortal to some extent(for me) but I bet there are good players that can do it all the way to diety.
As I said previously, this technique is usable for all VC's.
Actually it is for a type of a show. When we play for a particular VC in xotm, we are not just playing the AI, we are also playing against other human players performance. We all have the same save and 1 chance to get it right.
As for a space game, anyone can win spaceship games, but to win it in 16th or 17th century, you need to do many things a normal monger finds boring and technically difficult to do. You know, like keep a 30-50 city empire in the black and generating about 8000(8k) to 12000 (12k) bpt in 16th century where techs are learned in every 2-4 turns.
This can be done in emperror level regularly and immortal to some extent(for me) but I bet there are good players that can do it all the way to diety.
As I said previously, this technique is usable for all VC's.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Lately I am mostly trying to mock you SPs in to starting to play MP - we will have way more players and games running + a lot more players to learn from of course. But sadly most of the players in here when they hear about MP, they imagine all the malice and evil in the world and keep silent to my taunting. I see a spirit in you though.
Is it possible that the XOTM players manage to form a team to possibly field it in the MTDG3 we are trying to organize?
I think we have the core for 1 team already and the guys from Realms Beyond will form another team for sure once they see we are serious too. If you play in a SGOTM team or have close contacts with the players in the BOTMs - can you introduce to them the idea of forming few teams? I know in the SGOTMs there are already well established teams. It will be interesting to have one more MTDG and not at last to see if the SP players can pose a threat to the MP bunch.
Not to mention this will be a great opportunity to shut my mouth up and teach us MPers some lessons
Htadus
A and L's dad
I am afraid to start playing multiplayer games. Unlike SP games, where there is at least 5-10% chance that I can go to bed by 1AM, MP games has lead me to go to work with just couple of hours of sleep. Not good. It was fine while I had no family. Sadly I have very little self control when playing competitively.
I recall Quake/Americas Army and other frag fest days with longing and forboding. All I can say(wish) is maybe in another 12 years when the kids are out.
I recall Quake/Americas Army and other frag fest days with longing and forboding. All I can say(wish) is maybe in another 12 years when the kids are out.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Play pitboss - this requires small amount of time each day. I very occasionally do online MP lately too.
Elkad
Emperor
- Joined
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- 1,057
Pitboss is far different than "regular" online play.
Instead of bunchteen hours in a row, it's about 1 turn a day. Maybe a bit faster with less players or early on. But a game is going to take a year or so.
That means you have plenty of time for micro and diplo and stopping to sim something in worldbuilder.
Instead of bunchteen hours in a row, it's about 1 turn a day. Maybe a bit faster with less players or early on. But a game is going to take a year or so.
That means you have plenty of time for micro and diplo and stopping to sim something in worldbuilder.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yeah, and playing Civ with humans cant be compared to anything you can do with the AIs. I love playing humans.
And I know about BOTMs and SGOTMs - I play them sometimes and get scored like 10-15-th, but on the opposite, I win 90-95% of the games I start in when playing with humans.
And I know about BOTMs and SGOTMs - I play them sometimes and get scored like 10-15-th, but on the opposite, I win 90-95% of the games I start in when playing with humans.
It is a wise thing to have a decent DEFENSIVE army ready to repel attackers in your border-cities at any time...
In a short-term military build-up I do use my production-cities to build units. You should try to avoid having a treasury at almost zero once you have more than 4-5 cities. And, of course, lowering the commerce-slider (temporarily) may be a must when in danger of getting Declared War on.
Personally, I do beg Friendly and Pleased leaders for Coins (gold) whenever I need a little cash-injection. Also having good trade-relations, selling resources for Coins (gold) per turn is important. And if you are lucky enough to capture a holy city with a shrine in it - send out your missionaries! I don't wait for "more multiplier-buildings" than the Forge before building Wealth. Coins (gold) is taken from the sources I have available at the moment. In peace-time I don't usually spend more cities building Wealth than I need to get +1-5 Coins(gold) per turn.
In war, my commerce-slider is rarely at 100% Research. I have no problem lowering it down to 0% Research, 100% Coins (gold) for the duration of the hostilities.
But I try to conduct short wars. If defending, quick military build-up to re-take lost cities and conquer a couple of my opponent's cities. Then make peace as soon as my opponent is willing. Vengeance can be a strong feeling, but remember "revenge is a dish best served cold!"
Happy civving!
Kjotleik of Norway
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yeah, sure, but where your STRONG defensive army will come from if your production cities are building wealth instead of units I do wonder.
Yeah, sure, but lowering the slider with no money-multiplying buildings wont do you much good, this is my point.
Yes, yes, selling resources is OK, but it is some kind of nice additional side income, you cant rely on it to keep your slider at 100%.
Once I tried this approach and it turned out that I cant get positive gold income on 100% before factories, railroads and such. Am I missing something?
Again, having no single marketplace/grocery/bank and running 0% science slider looks like pure waste of commerce to me... But hopefully at some point someone will take the gauntlet and teach me how much I am wrong
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
- Joined
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- 8,165
100% Slider? NP Have a look at this Screenshot showing some nice economy 
You can see that the Slider is at 100% and I'm still making +10 GPT and about 200 BPT with 4k Gold in the Bank. This is without Courthouses, Academy and without building Wealth / Research. Screen is from about 1000 BC and my current round with Isabella.
Have a look at this Screenshot showing some nice economy 
You can see that the Slider is at 100% and I'm still making +10 GPT and about 200 BPT with 4k Gold in the Bank. This is without Courthouses, Academy and without building Wealth / Research. Screen is from about 1000 BC and my current round with Isabella.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
And where the gold comes from? Shrines?
pigswill
fly (one day)
Not everyone is at the level of teching education at 1000bc. I'd guess this is something like marathon deity.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Ah, marathon deity. That makes sense. Been a while when last played marathon. And traded techs with deity AIs.
Still interested from where all this gold comes.
And of course the regular challenging - can you show this same thing to me in-game in a MP? Pitboss, Play by E-mail - all works for me
Still interested from where all this gold comes.
And of course the regular challenging - can you show this same thing to me in-game in a MP? Pitboss, Play by E-mail - all works for me
Seraiel
If you want anything from I please ask in German
- Joined
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- Messages
- 8,165
You guessed right. Founded Christianity via being first to Meditation (I play with choose Religions and am still on the Crusade to 1.5M points = highest non-incan score) .
Also guessed right. Marathon though should have nothing to do with it, as I heard techs come slower on Marathon. 17 Deity AIs does a lot otoh.
Ah, marathon deity. That makes sense. Been a while when last played marathon. And traded techs with deity AIs.
Still interested from where all this gold comes.
And of course the regular challenging - can you show this same thing to me in-game in a MP? Pitboss, Play by E-mail - all works for me
In Multiplayer, I'd choose a FIN-Civ that starts with Mysticism and settle on a riverside lux while work a riverside lux from the start, so yer, I can show it in Multiplayer. Have to deny your challenge though, played PvP for the last 10 years in various games in top-ranked international groups like Valheru, atm. I have absolutely no interesst in that as PvE infected me. Maybe some day, if I'll get invited to a very good team.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Whats PvE?
I'm not the best player in the world, but sure got my share of winning. Had the fourth best % of wins at The League and was third for best streak of wins - 18 wins in a row or something at one time.
If you are so seasoned MP player, I will be even more tempted to try playing against you. I like challenges and learning the things trough hard experience. Sadly not much players are like this...
Anyway, the challenge stays, take your time.
I'm not the best player in the world, but sure got my share of winning. Had the fourth best % of wins at The League and was third for best streak of wins - 18 wins in a row or something at one time.
If you are so seasoned MP player, I will be even more tempted to try playing against you. I like challenges and learning the things trough hard experience. Sadly not much players are like this...
Anyway, the challenge stays, take your time.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Nice shot seraiel. Isn't high level games with max opponants are a hoot to play? Nice job beeline and tech selling for everybodies failed/accumilated gold.
Let me guess about the economy. International traderoutes in all cities, low maintanance cost due to the size of the map. Small empire for the map size but large for number of AI. You likely founded 1 or two cities after the capital and claimed the rest via early wars. AI are small and has even lower maintanance which means they have alot of GPT to buy your resources. On this set up claiming just few resources and selling it to AI for large amount of GPT is awesome. I have sold corn for some obsene 15 or 25 gpt once. Also if you bulbed or Oracled Theo, you may have the shrine gold too. But that income is limited to the spread. So no big surprise.
So when you get to about 20 cities, please post a screen shot at 100% science.
As for techs: You likely bulbed theology? Then teched or bulbed paper. Traded theo for most what you need. You are likely going to bulb most of Liberalism with the next GS. WHich would mean you have the option to trade Philo or already bulbed philo. So how far off am I?
2metre, you are not getting the concept of balance production in regards to building wealth. As I said previouslly by the time I need to build wealth exclusively, my empire can wipe any AI out. So no need to build new units.
As for Market and Grocers, all large cities will have them for happy and health reasons. Not every city need to be 20+ population. That is the reason why overlaping cities is good. Those small cities can build units, wealth or research and also run specialists as needed. Bank does nothing for the economy when running 100% science. 100 commerce x 0% = 0.
At standard speed and map size both market and Grocer cost 150 hammers and bank cost 200 H. Lets say you you build all three in a city and ran 4 merchants. So that is 24 commerce per turn. The cost is 500H. It will take 21 turns of running 4 merchant specialist to recover the hammer cost. So if you have more than 21 turns left in the game AnD can run 4 merchants (depends on food surplus) than it is worth building those improvements. If you can only run say 2 specialist the it will take 42 turns to recover the cost of building those improvements. There are no set rules with these kind of buildings. Sometimes it is worth building it, but some times they are not.
Let me guess about the economy. International traderoutes in all cities, low maintanance cost due to the size of the map. Small empire for the map size but large for number of AI. You likely founded 1 or two cities after the capital and claimed the rest via early wars. AI are small and has even lower maintanance which means they have alot of GPT to buy your resources. On this set up claiming just few resources and selling it to AI for large amount of GPT is awesome. I have sold corn for some obsene 15 or 25 gpt once. Also if you bulbed or Oracled Theo, you may have the shrine gold too. But that income is limited to the spread. So no big surprise.
So when you get to about 20 cities, please post a screen shot at 100% science.
As for techs: You likely bulbed theology? Then teched or bulbed paper. Traded theo for most what you need. You are likely going to bulb most of Liberalism with the next GS. WHich would mean you have the option to trade Philo or already bulbed philo. So how far off am I?
2metre, you are not getting the concept of balance production in regards to building wealth. As I said previouslly by the time I need to build wealth exclusively, my empire can wipe any AI out. So no need to build new units.
As for Market and Grocers, all large cities will have them for happy and health reasons. Not every city need to be 20+ population. That is the reason why overlaping cities is good. Those small cities can build units, wealth or research and also run specialists as needed. Bank does nothing for the economy when running 100% science. 100 commerce x 0% = 0.
At standard speed and map size both market and Grocer cost 150 hammers and bank cost 200 H. Lets say you you build all three in a city and ran 4 merchants. So that is 24 commerce per turn. The cost is 500H. It will take 21 turns of running 4 merchant specialist to recover the hammer cost. So if you have more than 21 turns left in the game AnD can run 4 merchants (depends on food surplus) than it is worth building those improvements. If you can only run say 2 specialist the it will take 42 turns to recover the cost of building those improvements. There are no set rules with these kind of buildings. Sometimes it is worth building it, but some times they are not.
