BNW: Venice

Tavenier

Tavenier

King
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
Messages
822
Location
Netherlands
What are the best options for Venice? I guess tradition is a no brainer, but what are must have wonders? Is founding a religion a viable option? What other civics are handy?
And towards what type of victory should you best go?

I play emperor, by the way.
 
I prefer tradition and going for as many wonders that give you great merchant points as possible. Colossus and Halicarnassus are particularly nice.

You will not need to spend too many hammers on units, because you will get a CS' entire army if you buy it with a merchant, so grow and wonder spam away.

I personally don't bother with a religion, spending my shrine hammers on getting the granary early, but since Venice can faith buy in its puppets, it should be perfectly viable.

Commerce is always my second policy, because it speeds up merchant generation, which will get you more city-state puppets. Mercantilism is also worth getting as soon as possible, because Venice does more buying than producing.
 
Mr. Grieves said:
I prefer tradition and going for as many wonders that give you great merchant points as possible. Colossus and Halicarnassus are particularly nice.

You will not need to spend too many hammers on units, because you will get a CS' entire army if you buy it with a merchant, so grow and wonder spam away.

I personally don't bother with a religion, spending my shrine hammers on getting the granary early, but since Venice can faith buy in its puppets, it should be perfectly viable.

Commerce is always my second policy, because it speeds up merchant generation, which will get you more city-state puppets. Mercantilism is also worth getting as soon as possible, because Venice does more buying than producing.
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Not to mention the buying bonus the Big Ben gets you. Such an underrated wonder, that.
I also like trying to get the Hanging Gardens. Getting Venice up to huge population isn't something to be underestimated, and if you don't have a river or a lake, you'll still get that oh-so-useful Garden to speed your MoV gains.
 
Loucypher said:
Not to mention the buying bonus the Big Ben gets you. Such an underrated wonder, that.
Click to expand...

Yeah, couple that with Autocracy and you're unstoppable. You'll be making money faster than you can spend it on :c5gold: 390 Great War Bombers.
 
If you start with a few sea resources you can always go for the great lighthouse. Not a great wonder but it gives you a merchant point and you will always beat the ai to it if you beeline it. It also requires Optics which gets you a free MoV so it's nicely placed on the tech tree.

Don't use all your MoV to puppet CS. It's often a good idea to use the first or 2nd MoV as a trade mission, you get enough gold to get your infrastructure up and running or buy a small army, don't underestimate the difference 2-3 free buildings/units can make.
 
Thing is your puppets will also start producing merchants, and they will eventually yield 4000 gold a pop.
 
lokithepunishr said:
If you start with a few sea resources you can always go for the great lighthouse. Not a great wonder but it gives you a merchant point and you will always beat the ai to it if you beeline it. It also requires Optics which gets you a free MoV so it's nicely placed on the tech tree.

Don't use all your MoV to puppet CS. It's often a good idea to use the first or 2nd MoV as a trade mission, you get enough gold to get your infrastructure up and running or buy a small army, don't underestimate the difference 2-3 free buildings/units can make.
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The Great Lighthouse sucks. Problem is that if you build the normal Lighthouse instead you will get all that food and hammers 10 turns or so earlier, which makes the total cost of the Great Lighthouse a lot more than just the 110 hammers difference. The Great Lighthouse is a trap since they moved the hammers on sea resources from the Harbor to the Lighthouse.
 
I agree that the Great Lighthouse is bad but the merchant point is what is important. Having a specialist in your market gets you 3 points, not enough to gain from your 25% National Epic boost. But add the Great Lighthouse moves you to 4 points thus gaining 1 from 25% National Epic boost. Same applies if you add a garden. 3 from market goes to 4 with 50% boost. 4 from market/GL goes to 6 from 50% boost
 
lokithepunishr said:
I agree that the Great Lighthouse is bad but the merchant point is what is important. Having a specialist in your market gets you 3 points, not enough to gain from your 25% National Epic boost. But add the Great Lighthouse moves you to 4 points thus gaining 1 from 25% National Epic boost. Same applies if you add a garden. 3 from market goes to 4 with 50% boost. 4 from market/GL goes to 6 from 50% boost
Click to expand...

The Colossus is a far better source of that extra Great Merchant point for Venice, you get two extra trade routes from it.
 
Calouste said:
The Colossus is a far better source of that extra Great Merchant point for Venice, you get two extra trade routes from it.
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I totally agree, I just said that if you start with sea resources the Lighthouse is a good idea.
 
You don't always have to try to get that sitting duck tradition Occ wonder spam win. Why not try piety or another social policy track for the fun of it? Honor with raging barbarians can get you a few more barbarian kills. Liberty and purchasing 2 cses early with collective rule and compass can get you the cses earlier than later to prevent unhappiness from buying late cses that are too populated to keep happy. Rebels with honor could help you increase your culture this way too if you don't start with liberty.
 
lokithepunishr said:
I totally agree, I just said that if you start with sea resources the Lighthouse is a good idea.
Click to expand...

Yes, and I said that, specially if you start with sea resources, the Great Lighthouse is not a good idea. Not only does it cost 110 hammers more than a normal Lighthouse, it will also cost you the extra food and production from your sea resources for the number of turns that it will take you to produce those 110 hammers. And for that you get 1 culture, 1 gold less maintenance, 1 Great Merchant point and extra view/movement. And you typically have to delay building the Colossus, which is the wonder you really want as Venice.

The Great Lighthouse looks nice in a vacuum, but in a game there are better things to do with your hammers.
 
Calouste said:
Yes, and I said that, specially if you start with sea resources, the Great Lighthouse is not a good idea. Not only does it cost 110 hammers more than a normal Lighthouse, it will also cost you the extra food and production from your sea resources for the number of turns that it will take you to produce those 110 hammers. And for that you get 1 culture, 1 gold less maintenance, 1 Great Merchant point and extra view/movement. And you typically have to delay building the Colossus, which is the wonder you really want as Venice.

The Great Lighthouse looks nice in a vacuum, but in a game there are better things to do with your hammers.
Click to expand...

I don't see where you specifically mentioned sea resources, but the Great Lighthouse has other advantages over the Colossus which you failed to mention. Frist, the GL is available earlier, so the great merchant points from it can be used earlier. Secondly, the lighthouse is from the tech of Optics which gives you a FREE (not like others) MoV. Also, you would realise that the GL is easier to get than the Colossus. In no way do I think the wonder itself is better, I just think that considdering where it's placed on the tech tree as well as other factors concerning free MoV it is a better choice PROVIDED you have sea resources to work.
 
lokithepunishr said:
I don't see where you specifically mentioned sea resources, but the Great Lighthouse has other advantages over the Colossus which you failed to mention. Frist, the GL is available earlier, so the great merchant points from it can be used earlier. Secondly, the lighthouse is from the tech of Optics which gives you a FREE (not like others) MoV. Also, you would realise that the GL is easier to get than the Colossus. In no way do I think the wonder itself is better, I just think that considdering where it's placed on the tech tree as well as other factors concerning free MoV it is a better choice PROVIDED you have sea resources to work.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the Great Lighthouse vs the Colossus, I'm talking about the Great Lighthouse vs a normal Lighthouse. And by the time you have finished the normal Lighthouse you can have researched Iron Working and start building the Colossus with all those extra hammers and food.
 
Tradition isn't exactly a "no brainer" Liberty provides a free Merchant of Venice 3 policies in. Not saying it's a must have, but it deserves consideration.
 
Montezuma II said:
Tradition isn't exactly a "no brainer" Liberty provides a free Merchant of Venice 3 policies in. Not saying it's a must have, but it deserves consideration.
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Is this really worth the opportunity cost of Tradition for the single tallest empire in-game though? The other policies are pretty damn weak for Venice...

+1 Production/City & +5% production on Buildings: meh. You buy the critical ones while your puppets waste them on Arsenals and Constabularies and such.

-Culture Penalty for founding Cities & Golden Age: As the one Civ that can't found new cities, this is a lot weaker

+1 Happiness from City Connections, -5% Unhappiness from Citizens in Unoccupied Cities: You won't have that many city connections, and this by far pales in comparison to Monarchy for Venic

Free Worker, 25% faster Worker Improvement rate: Again, very meh for a Civ that will have most of its worker actions done very early, and doesn't really need many Workers...

Free Great Person Finisher: could be another MoV I suppose, but it could also be a Scientist or Engineer, and Great Scientists/Engineers will be less common in your empire than others.
 
Thanks for all the advice!
Due to the lack of a proper laptop and due to my study, I haven't played Civ5 for a long time. Last week was the first time I played BNW. Played a game as Portugal, Indonesia and the revamped French. I love most of the new Civs and they have very creative abilities, especially Indonesia and Venice. I had Venice in all my games so that's why I asked about them.
They always seem to be in the middle or top of the most succesful Civs in my games. They get quite a lot of wonders and they also often have founded a religion. I think getting a religion with tithes (or the one which gives 2 gold per city) comes in real handy if you are buying CS's and their buildings.
I think liberty and honor do have their advantages, but they pale in comparison to tradition. I would consider piety, but some of the choices their are one time things for Venice. Like half production for temples.

I will start a game as Venice this weekend on a continents plus map. I am still not sure what wonder(s) to go for first. It also depends on my starting resources I guess.
 
I've loved playing Venice - mostly because it was the first random civ i ended up with when starting BNW. For me, it always comes down to a challenge on if I can win by something that ISN'T a diplomatic victory. It always feels nearly guaranteed when you have every single city state at your beck and call...
 
I've been trying Venice without buying any city states at all. Probably not the best plan, but it's worked out. So far I'm quite a ways ahead in science and own most CS's. Went Patronage of course. It shouldn't be hard to win dipomatically with them. Obviously, as has been said, with 1 city, and doubled trade routes rake in as much gold as possible, then you can do anything.
 
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