Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 22
CN Tower 14
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 9
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21

ORACLE: The wonder is useful for/benefits every win condition. It can also finish off the liberty tree much earlier than it would otherwise be completed, grabbing a very early great person of your choice.

PENTAGON: The savings are at best trivial when this wonder rolls around. Further, most of the upgrading is already done and paid for anyway.
 
Are we allowed to post again? How much are we allowed to post?
Because we're going to run out of forum goers long before we start running short on wonders.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 13
Colossus 18
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 9
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21

Chichen Itza +1, love the long GAs
CN Tower -1, it comes too late. If I'm going culture, I'm usually done before I get there, or would have built the towers already anyway.
 
Are we allowed to post again? How much are we allowed to post?
Because we're going to run out of forum goers long before we start running short on wonders.

I agree with this can we vote again yet?
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 13
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 7
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 16
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 20
Taj Mahal 21

Great Firewall is pretty pointless, best to let spy stealing rates in the capital get as high as possible so your counter-spies can rank up quickly for lategame coups.

Colossus needs more love, it can turn a coastal city into an economic powerhouse and allow for the purchase of so many useful buildings and units, not to mention the almost guaranteed game win you'll have if you start with enough sea resources and get a harbour and port up quickly.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 7
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 21

Corrected: CN Tower

CN Tower -1, it comes too late. If I'm going culture, I'm usually done before I get there, or would have built the towers already anyway.

I want to save Kremlin: because it's a great Wonder!! It gives your empire SO MUCH DEFENSE, that it even stop Infrantry (I'm saying this in my experience, TODAY!) even without more defensive buildings
I mean: Kremlin, with Walls, a Castle, and the following defensive building, will put up a fight to Mechanic Infantry
Combine that with the fourth defensive building (Millitary Base or something) and Settling on a Hill, and that city will be UNOTUCHABLE!
Now combine this with the Great Wall (the other wonder I wanted to save, although I agree it is really annoying to be THAT slowed down) and Tradition Olligarchy, and you have a perfect defense :)

I do not like SOH because it comes really late in the game, and really late for a cultural victory
Even if you were at a Domination Victory and you REALLY needed a policy you won't reach because of the highly increased cultural cost, the hammer cost is absurd.
From any perspective I try to look at it, it is useless, so there goes my down vote
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 5
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 13
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 21
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 5
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 24
Pentagon 10
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Great Wall: I don't want to slow down the AI attack, cause it would only mean I would slow down their defeat.
Notre Dame: I always hunger for those + 10 :)
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 5
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

The Oracle ends up being so useful because it doesn't increase the SP costs for your next policy, which means that it essentially ends up paying for your most expensive (and last) SP at every point during the game. It ends up being a very powerful scaling effect. Compare that to the GL, which just gives you the number of beakers of whichever tech you pick and that's it.

The Pentagon is just junk. Completely pointless.

- as an aside, I recently built the Terracotta Army for the first time in an Immortal game as the Aztecs, so I can now say there there is at least occasionally a point. Basically, I lucked into marble in the cap, was going tradition anyway and so had already taken Aristocracy, had lucked into a faith hut and because I wasn't planning on founding a religion and didn't have good dirt for pantheon benefits, just took Monument to the Gods to hopefully help me build the Oracle and/or Hanging Gardens.

So anyway, I'm planning on a cultural game, and after researching construction somewhat late with the TA still sitting out there (even on Immortal, the AI doesn't seem to care about it), I immediately get a message that a cultural CS with whom I was not yet allied wants me to build the TA. It was the last remaining classical wonder on which I could bring my full 45% hammer reduction to bear, and with the added incentive from the CS, I went for it, and it ended up being well worth the investment. But this was pretty much a perfect storm of factors which brought me to build what is otherwise a very meh wonder. But at least there is sometimes a point. I cannot imagine a scenario in which I'd ever build the Angkor Wat or the Pentagon.
 
Are we allowed to post again? How much are we allowed to post?
Because we're going to run out of forum goers long before we start running short on wonders.

I wrote please vote only once in 24 hours:

to not have someone cast a lot of votes not giving others a chance to react and to give everyone the possibility to vote again if wonders have been eliminated and/or to keep the thread going.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 3
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 21
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Petra: If there is one wonder that can completly change your gameplay, than it is this one.

Great Firewall: Too late and too costly. By the time you can get it, 95% of the games are already decided anyway. And if not, you either build military units or spaceship parts, so you can't waste hammers on it. Bad.

As for the CN tower: It could be a nice wonder. +1 :) and +1 pop AND a free broadcast tower everywhere is nothing to sneeze at. But like the Great Firewall, it comes 1-2 techs too late...
 
Since this is focused on including the new G&K wonders, I'll rate the best/worst of those this time

Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 23
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 1
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Great Firewall - the reasons why has already been stated. Usually, the game outcome is pretty much decided when this becomes available and who really cares if another civ should manage to steal a tech just before the game is finished.

Leaning Tower of Pisa - a free GP of your own choice in this mid-phase in your game and the added 25% GP modifier in all cities. Can have a huge effect and a GE wil bag you another wonder, essentially for free. LToP -> Porcelain Tower is a great gambit.

In general, some Atomic/Information Wonders are far from being worth the hammers you put into them in the endgame. The benefits they yield change nothing for the overall game result.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 24 (+1)
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 0 (-2)
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 19 (-2)
Eiffel Tower 25 (+1)
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 20
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 21
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 12
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 0
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 18 (-2)
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 22 (+1)
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 23
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Neuschwanstein Castle - I absolutely love this wonder. I typically run the honor tree as my third Social tree to be filled, that coupled with Neauchwanstein is amazing. I always have to stop every time I hover over a castle in my production que and take a second look at all of the abilities that a castle provides once all those bonuses are in place.

GMOD- fairly pointless in my eye. You can do similar things in many other ways. When I tech up to GMOD I just yawn at my options.
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 10 (-2)
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 0
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 18
Great Wall 11
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 23
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 22
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 24 (+1)
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Petra because I love to build unreasonably good cities, CN tower for the reasons stated above (too late for too little punch)
 
Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 10
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 0
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 18
Great Wall 9
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 24
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 20
Neuschwanstein Castle 22
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

I'll repost the rules for the new day:
Here we go again!

After the release of Gods and Kings some Wonder and their usefulness have changed, so I want to introduce a new Elimination Thread. Each Wonder starts with 20 points.
How to vote:
Copy the list from the latest post and give the wonder you like +1 point - and mark green, the wonder you dislike most -2 and mark red . Please give reasons and please vote only once within 24 hours.

A wonder that hits 0 points or below is elimminated and please deleate it from the list you copy.

ALL CORRECTIONS SHOULD BE MADE IN BLUE FONT AND LABELED AS CORRECTIONS. IF YOU ARE CORRECTING AND UP/DOWN VOTING, THEN USE THE RED OR GREEN COLOR AND SAY YOU VOTED AND CORRECTED
 
I do not like SOH because it comes really late in the game, and really late for a cultural victory
Even if you were at a Domination Victory and you REALLY needed a policy you won't reach because of the highly increased cultural cost, the hammer cost is absurd.
From any perspective I try to look at it, it is useless, so there goes my down vote

The free policy is almost incidental - the more important effect is +50% culture in the city where you build it. It's not always critical for culture victories, but if you're going for the conventional tall + landmark spam + Freedom finisher approach, that 50% is a huge boost, especially late in the game where spiralling culture costs of new policies can make it touch or go if you'll get there in time. You just need to plan around making your core culture city a coastal city in anticipation of needing the Opera House.

As for the CN tower: It could be a nice wonder. +1 and +1 pop AND a free broadcast tower everywhere is nothing to sneeze at. But like the Great Firewall, it comes 1-2 techs too late...

I'd prefer the pop/happiness ability to be on a different Wonder, because the CN tower is plainly designed to benefit a wide empire - yet it's tailored to culture at a point in the game where you have all the policies you need for most victory conditions, and so will only want it for cultural victories. And most cultural players play tall. So it's interesting but a bit hard to see anywhere it fits in most strategies.

Petra: If there is one wonder that can completly change your gameplay, than it is this one.

I'm not sure I'd say it changes my gameplay, in terms of the way I play, but it shares one thing with few other Wonders (and only one of those - Hanging Gardens - Classical): if you get it, and have the right city placement, it drastically improves your chances of winning much later in the game. It's a very long-term Wonder (and not just because it keeps giving once you research Archaeology - it shows just how weak Terracotta Army is that Petra gets the exact same effect as a free incidental bonus. Plus an amphitheater and its own +1 culture, all in addition to its main effect and a valuable GE point). Most other Wonders, at most game stages, give you a fairly immediate bonus or one that's valuable but not necessarily game-changing.

And if you get both Wonders - Hanging Gardens and Petra - in the same city (great tile output + lots of population growth to work those tiles early), you basically have won the game.

Leaning Tower of Pisa - a free GP of your own choice in this mid-phase in your game and the added 25% GP modifier in all cities. Can have a huge effect and a GE wil bag you another wonder, essentially for free. LToP -> Porcelain Tower is a great gambit.

Indeed, and I did exactly this in my last game. Leaning Tower is certainly among my favourites, while PT has two things working against it that prevent me voting for it: firstly, it's just an expensive Great Scientist on Duel maps, one of the Wonders that is heavily-dependent on game settings. Secondly, yes it's an automatic go-to, but for that reason it's a bit boring.

GMOD- fairly pointless in my eye. You can do similar things in many other ways. When I tech up to GMOD I just yawn at my options.

It has one key use: Interfaith Dialogue. For that reason I prioritise this Wonder when playing religion-heavy; besides which you are almost always going to be in a situation at higher levels when you can take one Theology Wonder but not the other, since someone else will grab the other. Hagia Sophia can be a quick boost in the right circumstances, but it's harder to get than the Great Mosque and has no long-term benefits. The GE point is also more useful than the GA point for most playstyles. Oh yes, and given the choice between a free temple and a free mosque, which would you choose? HS should probably give a free cathedral.

My votes for the new day:

Alhambra 22
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 23
CN Tower 10
Colossus 19
Cristo Redentor 21
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Firewall 0
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 20
Great Mosque of Djenne 18
Great Wall 7
Hagia Sophia 20
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 24
Kremlin 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 22
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Pentagon 8
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Macchu Picchu: Based on my above, I'm tempted to - and really should - vote for Hanging Gardens, but I'll go for MP because it seems underappreciated so far. I always beeline this Wonder when I have mountains; even with only a small number of cities it can give you a drastic early economy boost, and obviously the wider the empire the stronger the Wonder.

Great Wall: I'm somewhat disinclined to vote against the GW but, well, I never build it, something I can't say of any other ancient/classical Wonder. I never have any incentive to against the AI, and if anything it's a bad design by promoting poor play - your units are out of position? Just slow the enemy so that you can get there in time. You settled in the flattest part of the map, without any difficult terrain blocking enemy access? They'll count as being in hills anyway, so why bother with defensible positions? Things that can come back to bite you once you've teched to Dynamite (as this is the only remaining Wonder in Civ that becomes obsolete, at least technically). On higher difficulty levels, it comes too late to slow the early rush (unless you beeline Masonry and build it immediately, but if you do that you haven't built any units to take advantage of its effect), and after that you don't usually want to be on the defensive if any wars break out; even if you're the one being attacked you should be doing well enough to push into the enemy's territory. True, it does slow the enemy around your new conquests (if they're surrounded by flat terrain), but above all the Great Wall is overhyped - this is still a fairly mediocre effect that doesn't do a lot the terrain itself doesn't.
 
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