Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 8
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 21
Hubble 25
Kremlin 13
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 22
Oracle 25
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22


booo Great Mosque because it comes at the same time as HS, and HS is far more useful...yet the AI seems to prefer the mosque. let em have it.

yay Petra..In my current game I managed to get it built in my second city and now I can spam wonders there as well as my capitol. And while it normally goes fast on Immortal, it can hang around at times too (depending on AIs with desert start I assume)
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 8
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 21
Hubble 25
Kremlin 11
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 23
Oracle 25
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Kremlin down, because I've never built it except for once when I ran out of stuff to build in my capital. Notre Dame goes up because it was a good wonder that got even better with G&K, it's an a amazing building IRL, and because go Fighting Irish!
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 24
CN Tower 8
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 11
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 23
Oracle 25
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Hanging Gardens +1
The food surplus plays vital role in civ development. This is one of most important deciding wonders i wont miss.

Petra -2
Can't allow that this wonder will get top place, because its bit broken, but also is situational , and i actually, in many games, do not appear anywhere near desert. I prefer forests/jungle for industry/teching, and roll desert in one of many attempts.
Speaking of universality, this is not any-case wonder anyone will build (even if you able to, you better have nice desert hills around.) Great wonder, but it does not deserves top spot, so it goes down abit :)
 
You think? Tomorrow this wonder will get a downgrade from my vote. +6 food is nothing compared of any other boosts available right now. These hammers can serve a lot better. Excepted for OCC games.

+6 Food and +25% GP growth. Also, GAs are better now. I don't expect the Hanging Gardens to win or even rank top 10, but surely they're better than the Colossus, no? Food + GP generation > terrain limited gold, right?
 
I didn't think that anyone would downvote hanging gardens! If growth doesn't entice you, you can easily change the bonus to hammers by moving citizens around. Or you can use specialists and get synergies from the free garden, which is double awesome if you're not in a place where you can naturally build gardens.

I was just about to ask if this is serious. "All it does is help grow your city". What more important feature is there in this game? If someone did a 'Belief Elimination Thread', would you downvote Fertility Rites?

You think? Tomorrow this wonder will get a downgrade from my vote. +6 food is nothing compared of any other boosts available right now

Name even two you'd rather have at an equivalent stage in the game (one would be pushing it, but that would probably be answered with Stonehenge's early faith).

booo Great Mosque because it comes at the same time as HS, and HS is far more useful...yet the AI seems to prefer the mosque. let em have it.

In my experience the AI prefers Hagia Sophia. The problem for me with HS is that its bonus is one-off, and you need to play a very specific way to make it useful - basically rushing it as soon as you get religion, which in any case is about the same time the Liberty tree finishes if you're going for that, and if you want a free GP that much, why not just take that? Although I will concede that this is an academic point at higher levels, since you have to beeline Theology to get either Wonder before the AI.

Afterwards, you just have +3 faith and a temple anyone could buy. Even without the missionary effect, the Great Mosque gives you a mosque you may never have access to otherwise (and, incidentally, saves you around 300 faith - the cost of that Great Prophet without the HS) - I'd rather have a Wonder give me +6 faith, +2 culture and +1 happiness (and still let me have a temple in the same city) than one that's just +5 faith. And I'd rather have a Great Engineer point than a Great Artist point. And the long-term benefit, both in saved faith and the effects of spreading religion more quickly from the Mosque, far outweigh the benefit of the HS - as with many Wonders, it's a choice between a rush strategy that gives you an immediate short-term gain, or a strategy that plays for greater long-term benefits.
 
Oh yes, it's definitely the only modern Wonder in the game fully deserving of its place as a genuine Wonder of the World.

Yes...I would agree with both posters....and it has a wonderful human story of disappointment followed by eventual triumph. And I suppose you could say it's related to cathedrals...allowing humanity to glimpse into a vast spiritual realm.....far, far, far out into the "infinite"...:)
 
+6 Food and +25% GP growth. Also, GAs are better now. I don't expect the Hanging Gardens to win or even rank top 10, but surely they're better than the Colossus, no? Food + GP generation > terrain limited gold, right?

I forgot about the free garden. I will probably downgrade another wonder first. Still, the HG is not in my priorities. I built Colossus more often than this wonder. Growth isn't a problem even without HG if you go Tradition, religion food bonus and maritime cs.

It also comes to a point(mathematics) where(between turn 60 and 70) :

1- I'm building the NC
2-I'm preparing an army of CBs(construction needs maths)
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25 (+1)
CN Tower 6 (-2)
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 11
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 23
Oracle 25
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

CN just comes too late, I've already built all my radio towers by then if I need culture. And +1 pop/happy is pretty worthless since by that point your cities are pretty much maxed out anyway.

I was going to pick Petra but you don't always get desert. Hubble is also nice but only for science wins. So I went with Chitchen Itza, because longer golden ages are awesome and more universally helpful.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 6
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 9
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 24
Oracle 25
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

Since I already picked Eiffel for my first vote, I pick Notre Dame for pretty much the same reason. When I get it its a timely augmentation to my happiness concerns.
For the negative, I considered the Great Wall but I think GW is still better than the Kremlin - comes earlier if you want to play defense early while the Kremlins bonus to walls and castles is 'not important'. Lots of better ways to invest your hammers.
 
I was going to pick Petra but you don't always get desert.

My sentiments exactly - some of the wonders are very situational - the colossus or lighthouse is awesome if you build it early enough with 2 whales, crabs and a couple of fish! Couple that with God of the Sea and you have a monster city fast - production and population.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 4
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 9
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 25
Petra 25
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22


CN Tower just comes too late to be really useful. Notre Dame needs some love... shame I get beat to it so much.
 
Regarding Djenne, I observed that the great prophet also get +1 use. Happened in my last culture game. I was pleasantly surprised. It's definitely not as bad as I thought.
 
I was just about to ask if this is serious. "All it does is help grow your city". What more important feature is there in this game?

I think growing your cities is important, BUT I have my reasons for not building the HG.
1.) I don't like getting Mathematics very much mostly due to not conquering much in the early game.
2.) I can get more good stuff by allying with a Maritime CS.
3.) I can always go Tradition to get some nice growth bonuses.
4.) I can always built Granaries and other food/growth buildings.
5.) And lastly I don't like growing my cities too much in the early game. I much prefer to expand early and build and army to defend my new cities and grow them then.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
CN Tower 2 (-2)
Colossus 17
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 20
Great Library 23
Great Lighthouse 21
Great Mosque of Djenne 15
Great Wall 8
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 20
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 25
Kremlin 9
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 21
Machu Picchu 21
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 25
Petra 26 (+1)
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 22
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 21
Stonehenge 21
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 22

CN tower - Same as everyone else. Comes too late.

Petra - Love this thing. Used to get irritated so often that my good looking start on the edge of tundra had the gd sahara desert 10 squares north. Now I'm disappointed if I dont have a desert near. Also makes uber production cities possible, which I love. Brilliant idea imo. They should make one for Tundra (that underground place they have where they store every seed type maybe, tho that may be too modern)
 
I don't know how anyone would rate hanging gardens anywhere near the bottom. sure it's situational...they all are. But c'mon. It can turn a marginal city into a really good city. Find a spot with tons of desert hills but no food? perfect for hanging gardens/petra combo. That's six mined hills you can work now...1f 4h 1g each. Or what if you really need to crank up the specialists in a city but there's no river/lake? HG with freedom means you can now work 6 specialists in that city AND they are boosted 25%. Pretty much any city with hills but no food is going to benefit a LOT if you are able to build it.
 
My sentiments exactly - some of the wonders are very situational - the colossus or lighthouse is awesome if you build it early enough with 2 whales, crabs and a couple of fish! Couple that with God of the Sea and you have a monster city fast - production and population.

The Great Lighthouse doesn't have any tile effects - it just gives you a free lighthouse as well as its effects on unit movement/visibility.

As mentioned, the Colossus is somewhat more situational than most. Petra is situational, but (a) has better payoff, and (b) if you have some desert around, you usually have a lot, and assorted different tile types to go with it. Sea resources are great, but you don't get any equivalent of hills or flood plains to add the bonus to, and even with the Colossus sea tiles without resources are relatively mediocre - you don't really want to settle cities with large expanses of open water, certainly not early in the game.

I think growing your cities is important, BUT I have my reasons for not building the HG.
1.) I don't like getting Mathematics very much mostly due to not conquering much in the early game.

Mathematics is required for Currency, and going for Currency and then Guilds is important in any early game. And simply going for Mathematics for the Hanging Gardens rather than Courthouses or Catapults is perfectly viable. It's not on a particularly awkward tech path - indeed it comes just after Construction, which is important defensively (Composite bows) and for early expansion (Colosseum).

2.) I can get more good stuff by allying with a Maritime CS.

Now there are five CS types in the game, you can go full games without having any CSes of a particular type, especially on small maps. They tend not to start offering quests straight away, and only intermittently after that in the early game, so relying on both finding an early maritime CS and getting an alliance for long enough to be helpful is a gamble. Sure, if you do get lucky, you might not build the Hanging Gardens. You might not build Stonehenge if your closest neighbour is Wittenburg either. Then again, what's better than +3 food in the capital (maritime CS)? +9 food in the capital...

3.) I can always go Tradition to get some nice growth bonuses.
4.) I can always built Granaries and other food/growth buildings.

Both of which make the Hanging Gardens stronger, and vice versa. In my last game I had Hanging Gardens, Tradition, all the food/growth buildings (all four, note - and you have to wait until Biology to get the second-tier food building), Fertility Rites and Swords into Plowshares. You might as well argue that opera houses are bad because you can just build extra amphitheaters or ally with a cultural CS.

5.) And lastly I don't like growing my cities too much in the early game. I much prefer to expand early and build and army to defend my new cities and grow them then.

You know what helps with that? Being able to work your production and gold tiles - as many as possible as soon as possible. Even if you don't want to grow extra citizens straight away (which in my opinion is bad practice even for wide strategies, since you want the capital to be large and productive ASAP to spam settlers and units, or make enough gold to buy them; and 6 food = 6 production when you're building settlers), the Hanging Gardens feeds 3 of your citizens without them needing to work any food tiles at all. There really isn't a scenario I can see where this is not a very strong early Wonder - in the early game it's only rivalled by the Oracle for versatility and Petra for its ability to set you up with a potentially game-changing long-term advantage.
 
Possible idea for improving Colossus? Change it to provide +2 gold and +1 production for each water resource and almost maybe improve +4 to +6 gold or something. At least give some other benefit than pure gold. Heck even Machu Pichu gives +4 faith, lol, and the gold bonus is a lot better.
 
Possible improvement of Colossus: Change it to provide +2 gold and +1 production for each water resource.

A slightly improved Seaport without the naval production bonus? I'd not be impressed. The per sea tile (rather than resource) is fine, it just needs the bonus it provides improved - even if just to +2 gold (although, as it was a religious statue, maybe +1 gold and +1 faith?). Also, unlike most early Wonders it doesn't come with a free building - a 30 m tall statue has to at least count as a Monument; more usefully it could provide a free Harbour (since the statue was built over the bay of a major maritime trading centre).
 
Mathematics is required for Currency, and going for Currency and then Guilds is important in any early game. And simply going for Mathematics for the Hanging Gardens rather than Courthouses or Catapults is perfectly viable. It's not on a particularly awkward tech path - indeed it comes just after Construction, which is important defensively (Composite bows) and for early expansion (Colosseum).



Now there are five CS types in the game, you can go full games without having any CSes of a particular type, especially on small maps. They tend not to start offering quests straight away, and only intermittently after that in the early game, so relying on both finding an early maritime CS and getting an alliance for long enough to be helpful is a gamble. Sure, if you do get lucky, you might not build the Hanging Gardens. You might not build Stonehenge if your closest neighbour is Wittenburg either. Then again, what's better than +3 food in the capital (maritime CS)? +9 food in the capital...



Both of which make the Hanging Gardens stronger, and vice versa. In my last game I had Hanging Gardens, Tradition, all the food/growth buildings (all four, note - and you have to wait until Biology to get the second-tier food building), Fertility Rites and Swords into Plowshares. You might as well argue that opera houses are bad because you can just build extra amphitheaters or ally with a cultural CS.



You know what helps with that? Being able to work your production and gold tiles - as many as possible as soon as possible. Even if you don't want to grow extra citizens straight away (which in my opinion is bad practice even for wide strategies, since you want the capital to be large and productive ASAP to spam settlers and units, or make enough gold to buy them; and 6 food = 6 production when you're building settlers), the Hanging Gardens feeds 3 of your citizens without them needing to work any food tiles at all. There really isn't a scenario I can see where this is not a very strong early Wonder - in the early game it's only rivalled by the Oracle for versatility and Petra for its ability to set you up with a potentially game-changing long-term advantage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I want to grow a city I take steps that are more readily available to me like working a couple good food tiles or building a granary trying than trying to get a wonder to do the job. And by the time I even consider getting to currency I at least have gone up to writing and iron working, it would be even more delayed if I need to hook up trapping or calender resources and by then the AI, at least in my games, have already or are in the middle of building it. I see how it can be used to not have to work food tiles as much and focus more on gold and production and when used in combination with things like Tradition and Maritime CS's to grow like nuts, but there are other wonders in the early game that I would MUCH rather try to build.
 
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