Venice discussion

I like this, actually (except for maybe the uninspired UU names). Tall and golden, using massive wealth to pull the strings of the Most Serene Puppet Empire, buying units and buildings when necessary. I guess I know who to play as first of the new nine.
 
apocalypse105 said:
Culture victory has been changed checke the forums it no longer requires you to complete social policies trees. You need to create a lot of tourisme and get high influence with other civs to win. Having more cities to put great works in it helps for culture victories and you can't control puppits so I thinx venice isn't a good civ for culture.

I would thinx either science or diplomatic because domination is not so good because you are wasting trade routes
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Yes, this is why I said I wasn't sure how culture ties to victories anymore. Regardless though, if we will still believe the accumulating social policies is somehow tied to culture, and some form of victory will be especially helped by getting social policies, then you'd have to think Venice is going to kick ass in that area.
 
Ulthwithian said:
Louis: Well, I can only think that Venice will avoid Liberty. It's rather like Japan and the 'while wounded' Autocracy perk, except that Venice really shouldn't want to go the Liberty route, while Japan did indeed want to go Autocracy by inclination.
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Yeah, the whole Liberty thing is a little unfortunate. I don't think any Civ's UA should exclude it from any policy trees by default. I imagine though that now that Piety and Rationalism aren't exclusive any more, and that SPs in general seem to be cheaper, that 'cherry-picking' policies here and there rather than completing a tree before moving on to another might be the order of the day in BNW.

Another possibility is that Venice will get a free Merchant of Venice on adopting that policy instead of a settler, but since MoVs aren't Settler replacements, that may not be the case.
 
blackcatatonic said:
Yeah, the whole Liberty thing is a little unfortunate. I don't think any Civ's UA should exclude it from any policy trees by default. I imagine though that now that Piety and Rationalism aren't exclusive any more, and that SPs in general seem to be cheaper, that 'cherry-picking' policies here and there rather than completing a tree before moving on to another might be the order of the day in BNW.

Another possibility is that Venice will get a free Merchant of Venice on adopting that policy instead of a settler, but since MoVs aren't Settler replacements, that may not be the case.
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At the very least if they pick that policy they should get a worker. There should just be a code which says "If Settler belongs to Venice, turn into worker", and that would apply across the board.

/not a programmer
 
damnyankees: Well, you basically need a lot of Tourism. Not sure how easy it is to get, but the trade routes are a universal bump to it. I think the Hotel link is the best way of working it.

blackcatatonic: Heh, I'd love if they got a free MoV and (especially!) 50% reduction in their cost in the capital!! ;) ;) ;)

Still, though, I think their non-militant takeover of CSs with MoV is a red herring. Venice is ideally suited to a warmongering infinite puppet empire, particularly on aquatic maps, and so they'll want to maximize their trade routes with CSs...

Incidentally, I greatly prefer the peaceful culture game, so I find it ironic that I can't view Venice as anything but a warmonger Civ.
 
Ulthwithian said:
blackcatatonic: Heh, I'd love if they got a free MoV and (especially!) 50% reduction in their cost in the capital!! ;) ;) ;)
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I'd imagine they'd skip the part about reduced costs ;)

Of course, Venice could still complete Liberty and get a free MoV that way...
 
Ulthwithian said:
damnyankees: Well, you basically need a lot of Tourism. Not sure how easy it is to get, but the trade routes are a universal bump to it. I think the Hotel link is the best way of working it.

blackcatatonic: Heh, I'd love if they got a free MoV and (especially!) 50% reduction in their cost in the capital!! ;) ;) ;)

Still, though, I think their non-militant takeover of CSs with MoV is a red herring. Venice is ideally suited to a warmongering infinite puppet empire, particularly on aquatic maps, and so they'll want to maximize their trade routes with CSs...

Incidentally, I greatly prefer the peaceful culture game, so I find it ironic that I can't view Venice as anything but a warmonger Civ.
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I'm missing something here. Why do you think they are a warmonger? All their uniques seem to fit together to be a modestly sized puppet empire with tons of trade routes, and powerful galleases to protect those routes.
 
I wonder if MoV can be gifted by CS like the Khan when you're playing other civ. Will they retain their ability to purchase puppet CS? Not to mention the resulting awkward naming.
 
apocalypse105 said:
I wonder wich victory type venice is best suited for anyone have a idea? I can't say it directly I would say diplomatic because of the massive gold for trade routes?
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I think they're going to be very flexible. Low policy cost means you can max out one or two trees pretty early and all the gold from trade will give you a lock on many CS with Patronage.
The ability to purchase in puppets means you'll be able to reinforce your troops on the front line with bought units from a recently conquered city.
Science and culture could be a bit problematic because of the penalties from puppets, the low population and the lack of great works slots, but these disadvantages can be overcome through wonder spamming which should be pretty easy with all the gold to buy normal buildings.
 
goodday said:
I wonder if MoV can be gifted by CS like the Khan when you're playing other civ. Will they retain their ability to purchase puppet CS? Not to mention the resulting awkward naming.
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Brazilian Merchant of Venice :crazyeye:
 
GoodSarmatian said:
Science and culture could be a bit problematic because of the penalties from puppets, the low population and the lack of great works slots, but these disadvantages can be overcome through wonder spamming which should be pretty easy with all the gold to buy normal buildings.
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Also, double the trade routes will give you a lot more science leakage to keep you apace.
 
damnyankees: Why should I think otherwise? I'm a big fan of expanding through naval bombardment, and so particularly once they get their Galleass unit, there's no reason NOT to expand.

There's also the fact that they can buy stuff in their puppets. Therefore, if another Civ attacks them, unlike ANY OTHER Civ, they can purchase units in their puppets to defend them. That is, even more than most other Civs, their gold supply acts as a strategic reserve for troops. The big weakness of a puppet empire, militarily speaking, is that the gold supply is far weaker in that role because of the no purchasing restriction. Venice doesn't have that restriction.

Basically, LOTS of money + powerful Naval unit + Being able to purchase defensive units/buildings/happiness buildings in your puppets creates a Domination steamroller effect, IMO.
 
Wow.. A civ with unique mechanism I want from a long time ago.. :eek:
Suit my playstyle when I'm bored.., build a capital and create a puppet empire.. :lol:
However, I doubt AI will handle this mechanism well..

It seems the majority of BNW's civs is very interesting to play.. Their new unique effects are fun and become great materials for an XML modder like me.. :goodjob:

Question about Venice..
Looking at MoV's wording.., it seems Venice's puppet-CS still has its "nationality" unlike Austria's annexed-CS..
So, when I conquer their puppet-CS, can I liberating it??
 
Venice might be a good but weird culture civ. Not having to spend hammers on settlers early will free up production for other goals. Most likely military to protect your trade routes. Then you can focus on building up your capital. Get some wonders and the guilds. Then go conquer people to steal their artifacts. Buy culture buildings in your puppets and stuff them with loot. You will probably have to conquer though since tourism seems like it would need more than one city to overpower the AI.

You will need to balance conquest and city-state grabbing to maintain a good income. Internal trade routes could buff puppets quite nicely. With Venice you almost certainly are coastal bias and internal sea routes look very powerful. Venice could become a monster. Grab a coastal CS or 2 with your Merchants and use the developed city to send gobs of production or food home.
 
Ulthwithian said:
Louis: Well, I can only think that Venice will avoid Liberty. It's rather like Japan and the 'while wounded' Autocracy perk, except that Venice really shouldn't want to go the Liberty route, while Japan did indeed want to go Autocracy by inclination.
Click to expand...

Well, my motivation is two-fold. The other motivation is that Venice does have a cool city-list, which it would be a shame to ignore completely. I do think that Autocracy perk needs to be fixed for Japan. In my view, it plausibly a bug.
 
Louis: Well, they 'sort of' fixed the Japan thing by not forcing you to take it with the new Ideology system.

Very curious if the Liberty policy is just dead for Venice. Puppet empire can definitely benefit from the Opener...
 
I think Liberty is useful for Venice anyway... You may not get the settler (or maybe you do? dun dun dun), but 2 workers, bonuses for cities and all that are still useful when having a Puppet Empire...

I actually hope that the "Merchant of Venice" has some kind of built in Text tag that makes him not show its gentilice, so we don't get a Venetian Merchant of Venice...

Which other names would have worked for the Merchant and the Great Galleas?
 
In immortal level will AI Venice start with two settlers? :)

edit I hope that they tested it and Venice has more than one city name and additional settlers from liberty or game level will not crash the game... ;)
 
I just registered so hello all of you :)

I did this to write this: I think you are all wrong ;) With the thing that Venice cannot HAVE settlers. UA states that Venice cannot GAIN them, like via policy with a free settler.
Imagine a duel: Venice vs A Whatever Else Civ. Might be Hun, for example. Having a single city until Optics, when V. can puppet one CS, and then a long pause before a second CS gets puppeted. With a decent Hun player, Venice won't make it to Renneisance. There will be only a night full of terrors ;) Playing Venice and winning wouldn't be challenging. It would be impossible.
And Liberty? Just an unfortunate tree to take on. I wouldn't open it without being able to fully benefit from it. So I don't get +50% to sett production and that's the point.
 
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