SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Kyoto has lost what, 2 tiles? Although more could be lost if Toku settles a city 3 tiles away, and picks up the culture on the currently neutral tiles (that came from Kyoto).

I think Kyoto works best as a stronghold and a science production city, but not a legendary city, all things considered.

That assessment would change if someone takes Toku out.

dV

We should get those tiles back if we culture bomb (while assigning all the citizens to artists) and have continual artists assigned (and build our suite of Hindu buildings as well). But there is equally no point bombing unless we agree this is going to be our 3rd city (I think it might be the best).

If we get a GP next, the Christian shrine would be good (we could use the extra money as well at the moment).

I really have no idea of the state of Kyoto's tiles. A screenshot would help. Are the lost tiles powerful tiles?

How far away is Toku's nearest city? If it has only recently popped its borders we might find we have a good amount of time to bolster Kyoto's culture, eg, time for us to produce 2 GArtists.

If not Kyoto, where?
Vijay is quite a strong production city, isn't too shabby in food, and has gems as well.
Patal is also quite a nice city, but any arguments against Kyoto for defending from a legendary city would apply equally to Patal.
Varanasi has a couple of food sources, but is otherwise kind of average.
Osaka is mediocre, and would be more so if Bombay took its corn tile.
Tokyo is also mediocre.

Can we also get a screenshot of Vijay, to compare its potential vs Kyoto?

Comments in red.

Ronnie1 said:

City Builds

Delhi - missionary(Hammy's capitol) > Sistine (chopping) > Mid set pause Skip the Missionary. Chop Sistine.
Bombay - Archer > Hindu Mandir Hindu + Christian missionaries = more important than Mandir at the moment, I think.
Vijay - Archer > WB (explore N) > ??? Missionaries + temples. Courthouse if we've really run out of things to build. Vijay isn't coastal, do you have it mixed up with Patal?
Pata - Library > worker * 2-3 Mixed up with Vijay?
Vara - Monastery > worker * 2-3 How many more workers do we need?
Osaka - H Temple > H Monastery
Tokyo - Library > H Temple
Kyoto - Walls > Hindu Temple > Hindu Monastery
New city - found immediately, pop borders with artist, build granary, get worker there asap

Worker actions
Generally chop infrastructure ASAP
Priorities
1) Sistine
2) Hindu buildings Monasteries + Temples
3) Missionaries of all kinds
3) Everything else

That's it really,
Don't do anything stupid!

Stop Actions
Anything overly terrible happens
Lose Sistine
DOW

Click to expand...

How many workers do we have? Are our current set of workers not keeping up with the jobs that need doing?

One of the Buddhist cities should plan to build a buddhist missionary. Get Buddhism spread to one of our high production cities so we can further spread it. We will want it in at least 6 cities, 2 of which are Delhi + Bombay. Preferably no more than 6, since that's just extra gold to Liz.

Same goes for Christianity, though since we'll build the shrine, there is no need to stop at 6, as each extra earns us gold.

Cities that don't have an urgent need to build things, eg, everywhere except Delhi, should be Micromanaged for +, not production. Infrastructure like Temples and Cathedrals are important, but it is more important to shave off time to get to Liberalism.

Delhi has base production of 27?
How many forests could we chop in a short amount of time? I've assumed 2 forests in the next 4 turns.
Does Delhi have any overflow to use up?

After 4 turns of normal production we have 4 * [27*2.75] = 296/600 of Sistine.
Add in a full 30 chop (82) and another outside BFC 20 chop (55) and we're up to 433/600.
Do we assume that a whip into Sistine is worth 20 base /pop? 3 pop is therefore 3*20*2.75 = 165. So ideally, after 4 turns we should aim to have 435/600 invested. Surely that is possible by hiring a citizen specialist or working a forest or something.

This gets Sistine built in 5 turns, at a cost of 3 population.

Might be time to pull out a test game and find out if the assumption about /pop is correct?

Alternatively, max out our production by assigning citizen specialists + forests with - and we might get up to 29 base /turn, or 79 modified. With the chops mentioned above, this should get the build done in 6 turns. Without whipping any population.

Not at the game presently.

Kyoto tiles = copper + wheat or corn, ONLY buddhist city

May have mixed up Vija and Pata.

We only have 5 workers right now and lots of forests to chop.

I played 4 turns.

Sistine is complete! No whips, 4 forests chopped.

We got another G Prophet from Bombay and he built the Christian shrine.

As I see it now, we just need to pump culture buildings and try to start generating G Artists ASAP.
Upload log

Autolog

Some screens

Nice work R1! Maybe you now have the title of most productive shortest turn run.

dV

Any more feedback?

Am I good to play a few more turns?

It's looking good Ron. Press on.

Did we need to switch to slavery? If not, then that's great.

Do we have a city dedicated to scientist specialists for the Education GS? Other cities are assigning artists and/or growing?

Comments in Blue

adrianj said:

It's looking good Ron. Press on.

Did we need to switch to slavery? If not, then that's great. No switch, still not sure if it is needed in the future though.

Do we have a city dedicated to scientist specialists for the Education GS? Other cities are assigning artists and/or growing?No here as well.

Click to expand...

The GP production is the problem. We have accumulated G Prophet points in our 2 best farms currently.

We have NOT built NE anywhere also. I think I am going to concentrate on getting the Hindu buildings up in Delhi and Bombay. Second priority is spreading the other 2 religions IMO.

Kyoto is probably our highest food city, when it has all its tiles. However, it's got plenty of other things to build before it could get stuck in to a building like NE.

How about Vijay?

Can we get screenshots of Kyoto and Vijay?

Ronnie1. Sistines will speed us up quite a bit. Certainly feel free to carry on the good job.

Did manage a quick look at the save but it was 3 o'clock in the morning so wasn't quite at my best.

Glad to see Kyoto has calimed back a couple of tiles to the East giving it a grass sheep as well and along side Bombay/Delhi will be our strongest food site if it gets its corn tile back which it should. It does need a hindu temple/monastery but other cities need to build temples etc as well so I would put Nat Epic here or if we don't want to risk it as a culture city Vijay.

With the amount of non artist gps we have had and the cost of the later artist Gps which are likely to be expensive especially if we get 1 or 2 GS's or other GPs along the way so I woold like us to still think about 3 cathederals per legendary city.

Warrior in North looks like he can see TokuShaka's boundaries. We know his in the game though not sure if we should let him know we are? Have enough WHEEOH atm as it is.

I am playing on.

The game is currently running in the background in the inter turn at 720AD.

Hatty is asking us to join her war against Toku!

I am inclined to say yes and help her capture, or capture for ourselves, if it looks juicy or very defensible, whatever city is NE of Kyoto.

I have to leave in a bit anyway, so I am just going to let the game run in the background.

I want to continue in about 10 hours.

Can I PLEASE get some feedback ASAP!

Welll good news and I was right about Hattie atacking Toku. I would take the war declaration but do't do anything. Just let hattie wipe out Toku and we get Kyoto's BFC. OF course if there is a great city and we can easily take it feel free.

Diplo Repurcussions
If we refuse, we definitely get a -ve "You refused to help us" hit versus Hatty?
If we agree, we possibly get a few -ve "You declared war on our friend" modifiers with other AI. Do we know which AI are pleased or better toward Toku? Obviously Ron can't check this, but does anyone else have access to Ron's last posted save to have a look at the F4 screen? (I can't, sorry)

Points For
We have a bunch of reasons to want to go to war against Toku again.
1. Wiping him out removes all the cultural pressure on Kyoto.
2. We can get some shared war diplo with Hatty.
3. Maybe we gain a nice city if we choose to attack.
4. If it drags on long enough, we can get the other AP members to join in.

That last point has an extra side benefit: if Liz is forced into war vs Toku, then we don't need to worry about her declaring on us.

Points Against
1. The possible negative diplomacy hit.
That's pretty much it...

Wiping out Toku might not actually be to our advantage. He is a heathen Christian, just like we are a heathen Hindu. Having him alive for longer might be drawing more hateful attention from the Buddhists.

I think we accept Hatty's request, but we don't actually commit any troops whatsoever. When the AP vote rolls around, get everyone to jump in on Toku.

Edit: XPost with Sleepless. Toku's city(ies) would have to be pretty great for us to want to take it (them). Extra cities add to our maintenance costs, and unlikely the city would be on better defensible terrain than our current eastern most point of Kyoto.

I can get a look at the save in about 3 hours from this post, to answer aj's diplo question.

I think aj has it right: DOW but don't go on offense. If Hatty takes some Christian cities, could we make her a Christian Heathen too?

I thought that Kyoto was going to be our dedicated scientist city ... since it has the Academy. At least that is what I proposed in my PPP and I don't recall seeing any contradiction. Now, it might be finishing off hindu buildings for now, but my sense was that Kyoto made the most sense for scientist farming.

Maybe the need to make culture in Kyoto with artists has clouded the issue? That need goes away if the nearby Toku city falls.

dV

About my diplo question - the answer might be irrelevant. I think we want to accept war with Toku regardless of what other AI think...

I still think Kyoto is the best city for generating that scientist. But we don't urgently need the GS, not until we have learned Philosophy and Paper. So I think there is a little time to get H Temple + H Monastery + Buddhist Missionary built. Possibly even Library + National Epic...

It would be great if a different city could produce a Great Artist next, which we can bomb in Kyoto. Are Patal, Vijay or Varanasi ready to commit to specialists?

adrianj said:

Diplo Repurcussions
If we refuse, we definitely get a -ve "You refused to help us" hit versus Hatty?
If we agree, we possibly get a few -ve "You declared war on our friend" modifiers with other AI. Do we know which AI are pleased or better toward Toku? Obviously Ron can't check this, but does anyone else have access to Ron's last posted save to have a look at the F4 screen? (I can't, sorry)

Click to expand...

IIRC it is possible to hit F4 and check diplo stuff even with a diplo request like this one open, I think I do it every time.

Sleepless said:

...I would take the war declaration but do't do anything. Just let hattie wipe out Toku and we get Kyoto's BFC. OF course if there is a great city and we can easily take it feel free.

Click to expand...

adrianj said:

...
I think we accept Hatty's request, but we don't actually commit any troops whatsoever. When the AP vote rolls around, get everyone to jump in on Toku.

Edit: XPost with Sleepless. Toku's city(ies) would have to be pretty great for us to want to take it (them). Extra cities add to our maintenance costs, and unlikely the city would be on better defensible terrain than our current eastern most point of Kyoto.

Click to expand...

I agree with the above.