Netherlands : Rather lackluster ability?

People who play lower difficulties think the Netherlands is weak.
People who play on higher difficulties know its a strong civ.

There is no convincing the first group because they often dont use all the mechanics in the game, or dont know how to use it well.

This whole argument seems flawed to me. To say that one Civ is “lackluster” because another Civ’s Uniques are better than its Uniques (which is debatable) is highly illogical. Even if we were to scientifically determine that Arabia’s Uniques are superior to those of the Netherlands, that doesn’t make the Netherlands’ Uniques “lackluster.” On the contrary, they’re still pretty darn powerful.

This argument sounds like somebody saying Aaron Rodgers is a “lackluster” quarterback because they think Drew Brees is better. Even if Drew Brees is better, Aaron Rodgers is still a top 5 QB.

I would of thought that the Netherlands' UA would not only be useful for early trades but also if you plan on going tall or maybe even OCC as it allows you to actually get some real trading done despite the severe shortage of luxuries.

On higher difficulties, they are a great civ. They can sell their starting luxes to rushbuy a settler and still have the happiness to grow the new city. The polder is situational, much like Spain's UA, but when you can use it, man does it shine. And the Sea Beggar can quickly turn the tide of a naval war.

They don't get a lot of respect because their abilities aren't clearly dominant for any specific VC, but all three have snowball potential. They gain a decisive, if situational edge in trade, terrain, and naval warfare. They're like a dog with a stuffed animal - if they can just rip that first seam, they'll tear the stuffing out in seconds.

So what happens when other civs have the same luxuries as you do and you cant trade them?

Same thing that would happen as any other civ (even Arabia). You don't get teh monies. That's why early game exploration is so important - finding far-flung civs with open markets.

If you can't find a trading partner, you aren't trying hard enough.

RealHuhn said:

And here we go again. The endless Arabia vs Netherlands discussion.

People just don't understand that an early bonus is (on most maps) better than a late one. Netherlands is the ultimate snowball civ. If you don't use their ability early in the game, you're doing it wrong.
Trade everything you have and either use the extra gold for buying workers/settlers or the extra happiness for expansion.

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I suppose this sums it up succinctly....I really like playing the Netherlands...and I haven't even properly used their UA yet.

It seems that anything that can be done early tends to trump anything that can be done later...the magic of the multiplier effect. The key is being able to maintain your balance as you go...

I think all of us recognize the advantage of getting off to a great start no matter which civ you are playing.... Who wants to wait ten turns to build monument, when in some starts you can do it in seven... That's why a lot of us tend to re-roll those lacklustre, low production starting points...

hbar said:

Same thing that would happen as any other civ (even Arabia). You don't get teh monies. That's why early game exploration is so important - finding far-flung civs with open markets.

If you can't find a trading partner, you aren't trying hard enough.

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Yea, but you are pretty limited in your explorations till you get ocean going tech.

If you spawn on a continent with 3 aggressive leaders who all declare war on you early on, you don't get to trade at all. Or let's say you end up with silk and sugar...but most of the civs on your continent have silk and sugar too, so you end up trading it to one guy only. It feels quite situational.

Real Huhn said it - the Netherlands UA kicks in immediately and will help you enormously in the early game - you don't have to wait until a certain tech is researched and bazaars are constructed. It is passive. Combine it with Protectionism and you can keep expanding/taking cities and never look at an unhappy face.

To add, The Sea Beggar might just be the best naval unit in the game. My first Netherlands water map game, dethroned the English naval game I had at the same difficulty level, immortal. Sea Beggars transformed my fleet, which consisted of some 8 ships, to about 35-40 when the game ended. Attack with frigates and go for the kill with the SB. Heal new unit/haul back to friendly waters and upgrade if possible. 'Free' frigates and privateers in abundance.

I'm fairly convinced that next time I play them, I can do better.

One little note, on diety the civs will almost always have plenty of gold to trade you for your luxuries. Probably another reason why people that play lower difficulty levels are thinking its not great.

The more you actually play civs the more you realize that they are pretty much mostly balanced. Another thing about the dutch, your not really constrained to going a liberty/tradtion route like some other civs.

Does anyone actually go honor on Diety?

Question said:

Yea, but you are pretty limited in your explorations till you get ocean going tech.

If you spawn on a continent with 3 aggressive leaders who all declare war on you early on, you don't get to trade at all. Or let's say you end up with silk and sugar...but most of the civs on your continent have silk and sugar too, so you end up trading it to one guy only. It feels quite situational.

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You're not dependent on Astronomy. You can pick the Great Admiral from Naval Tradition and you it as an explorer, because you will always open up Commerce with the Netherlands anyway.

Priah77 said:

One little note, on diety the civs will almost always have plenty of gold to trade you for your luxuries. Probably another reason why people that play lower difficulty levels are thinking its not great.

The more you actually play civs the more you realize that they are pretty much mostly balanced. Another thing about the dutch, your not really constrained to going a liberty/tradtion route like some other civs.

Does anyone actually go honor on Diety?

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I think the Dutch tilt towards tradition. The extra food from Polders gives you large cities, and you're also always going to pick Commerce and the Commerce opener goes well with a large Tradition capital. Typically when I play the Dutch I only have the capital until I have at least Guilds, both for the Polder and the National Treasury, and then start founding other cities and just buying most of the basic buildings in those new cities.

Netherland's UA is highly situational. I had a game with them where I rolled a start that had only cotton in it... and more cotton not far off. And after that, the nearest different luxury resource was gems... and Gandhi beat me to it. In this situation, the UA is practically worthless, because I'll have to sell off the first 4 copies of cotton before I even get to the last copy. And I've had situations like this a surprising number of times as them.

On the opposite tack, I have at times rolled a start with 4 or more luxury resources within reasonable range or actually in the starting area of my first city, and in these situations, the UA does reasonably well, because I can always trade off all 4 luxuries for a set of 4 new luxuries I didn't have before, and I'll get a decent happiness boost.

Like most, if not all, UA's, Netherland's UA has its uses. And comparing them to Arabia makes sense, I can see, but there's a huge difference between being able to trade luxuries for extra happiness right away (Netherland's UA) and having to wait, tech for a while, and at last build a Bazaar (Arabia's UB).