Wow, Indonesia...

gunnergoz · Jul 9, 2013

I find it hard to understand the arguments from people who insist that all civs play equally well on all map types. Clearly some are optimized for certain geographic placements...yet no one complained about Inca hill building perks and who would want to play them on a desert map with almost no hills? Yet people insist upon playing civs like Venice and Indonesia, which are both clearly oriented towards trade and going offshore, on pangea maps or on continent maps that frequently cannot be crossed until you have ocean-going capability in mid-game.

If we want truly generic civs that work equally well everywhere, the game would be so lame I couldn't play it. Whatever happened to the appreciation of flavor and diversity - and challenge?

DJ_Tanner · Jul 9, 2013

in the now said:
The fact that the Indonesian ability requires cities to be built on continents OTHER than their own...it sucks, and i think may make them the worst Civ in Pangea, easily.

*fixed

Montezumas Hat · Jul 9, 2013

I'm just trying them out, so obviously I went Archipelago. Like with Polynesia, I just don't pick them if I'm playing Pangea, though I've had Pangeas with enough really good spots for those three resource cities.

But while I'm here, open question. If you settle one of those first three cities on a resource tile itself, luxury or otherwise, you still get the special resource, right? I've got a fantastic two tile island with three Fish (I took prod for fishing boats), and the only land is a sugar, a deer, and a horses three tiles away on a separate (more useless) island. I don't want to build it if it turns out you can't stack nutmeg on top of a sugar, though.

Grumpbeard · Jul 9, 2013

kaspergm said:
Obviously Indonesia will have a better time on a Archipelagio / small continents type of map. Don't expect them to shine on Pangea or Continents.

So too is Polynesia's ability better on maps with fewer large landmasses. It happens. Morocco's is going to be better on a hot, dry map. The one about Tundra Faith (Celtic?) on a cool map. Etc.

gunnergoz · Jul 9, 2013

Montezumas Hat said:
I'm just trying them out, so obviously I went Archipelago. Like with Polynesia, I just don't pick them if I'm playing Pangea, though I've had Pangeas with enough really good spots for those three resource cities.

But while I'm here, open question. If you settle one of those first three cities on a resource tile itself, luxury or otherwise, you still get the special resource, right? I've got a fantastic two tile island with three Fish (I took prod for fishing boats), and the only land is a sugar, a deer, and a horses three tiles away on a separate (more useless) island. I don't want to build it if it turns out you can't stack nutmeg on top of a sugar, though.

I think the special resources just show up in their possessions screen and not on the map, much as those specials in CS's.

Yzman · Jul 9, 2013

gunnergoz said:
I think the special resources just show up in their possessions screen and not on the map, much as those specials in CS's.

The CS ones actually appear on the city tile under it, so his question is a valid one. My game is still downloading so I can't verify.

seancolorado · Jul 9, 2013

So both PhilBowles and I started with Indonesia

We both started next to a river - does anybody know if that's Indonesia's bias?

ToodleElNoodos · Jul 9, 2013

I started by a river also. Think it's to guarantee a candi in in the city. It's pretty nice, got 2 lux resources nearby and a whole bunch a cotton.

Ulthwithian · Jul 9, 2013

Considering their UB, I would hope so.

Bechhold · Jul 9, 2013

So the "new" spices are not subject to trade?

PhilBowles · Jul 9, 2013

Teagen said:
From what I can tell you only need 1 "other" continent...a different one from where Indonesia started on. You can build all 3 cities on that other continent and still get the 3 unique luxuries. So you don't really have to find 4 seperate landmasses.

No, it's been clarified in Q&As that all three have to be on separate landmasses.

Didn't get a chance to test this because my landmasses were only large enough for one city each (aside from the main continent and the final one I discovered, after I'd already settled the resource cities).

So both PhilBowles and I started with Indonesia

We both started next to a river - does anybody know if that's Indonesia's bias?

It's somewhat rare not to start next to a river, or at least within a turn of one, with any civ. I think there was some discussion about a pre-release screenshot of a candi in Jakarta with no freshwater, so there seem to be cases where Indonesia doesn't start by a river (which of course doesn't prove there isn't a bias towards rivers). I didn't think to check whether the candi has a freshwater requirement in my game.

So the "new" spices are not subject to trade?

In what sense? I didn't see the nutmeg icon with the trade route from my nutmeg city, but I'm not quite sure how those resources are calculated.

Since you mention it, however, I don't recall seeing them (or cloves or pepper) in the diplomacy screen, which would be odd when the city supposedly gets two copies of them - the second must have some use.

seancolorado · Jul 9, 2013

PhilBowles said:
No, it's been clarified in Q&As that all three have to be on separate landmasses.

Didn't get a chance to test this because my landmasses were only large enough for one city each (aside from the main continent and the final one I discovered, after I'd already settled the resource cities).

It's somewhat rare not to start next to a river, or at least within a turn of one, with any civ. I think there was some discussion about a pre-release screenshot of a candi in Jakarta with no freshwater, so there seem to be cases where Indonesia doesn't start by a river (which of course doesn't prove there isn't a bias towards rivers). I didn't think to check whether the candi has a freshwater requirement in my game.

This reminds me, I'm hoping someone creates a thread just like in G&K where they compiled all the start biases and listed what they were for each civ

Also, unrelated, but hoping the same is done for the UUs to clearly outline which ones keep their bonuses and which ones lose them

PhilBowles · Jul 9, 2013

seancolorado said:
This reminds me, I'm hoping someone creates a thread just like in G&K where they compiled all the start biases and listed what they were for each civ

Also, unrelated, but hoping the same is done for the UUs to clearly outline which ones keep their bonuses and which ones lose them

I can tell you that one for Indonesia at least: The Swordsman keeps its random promotion on upgrade, even if you haven't revealed it by fighting with that unit (it still has a question mark promotion shown), and it will trigger the first time you fight as a Musketman/Rifleman or whatever just as for a Kris Swordsman.

seancolorado · Jul 9, 2013

PhilBowles said:
In what sense? I didn't see the nutmeg icon with the trade route from my nutmeg city, but I'm not quite sure how those resources are calculated.

Since you mention it, however, I don't recall seeing them (or cloves or pepper) in the diplomacy screen, which would be odd when the city supposedly gets two copies of them - the second must have some use.

Really? That seems odd

Does anybody else have a similar issue? (In my game with Indonesia I didn't get around to settling cities on different continents)

seancolorado · Jul 9, 2013

PhilBowles said:
I can tell you that one for Indonesia at least: The Swordsman keeps its random promotion on upgrade, even if you haven't revealed it by fighting with that unit (it still has a question mark promotion shown), and it will trigger the first time you fight as a Musketman/Rifleman or whatever just as for a Kris Swordsman.

Woah, seriously??

PhilBowles · Jul 9, 2013

seancolorado said:
Woah, seriously??

Yes. And this is a much, much better unit than expected given that it's "only" a Swordsman. Swordsmen now seems to be the preferred AI tech path, with pikemen in smaller quantities, so this really will be your front-line fighting unit, and if you have iron and a rival doesn't you keep your edge for longer.

seancolorado · Jul 9, 2013

Hey PhilBowles, could you elaborate on not being able to trade your unique luxury resource on the diplomacy screen? Do you think you might have overlooked something, or are we talking about a bug here? Because for sure they would give you two copies so you could trade one of them

PhilBowles · Jul 9, 2013

seancolorado said:
Hey PhilBowles, could you elaborate on not being able to trade your unique luxury resource on the diplomacy screen? Do you think you might have overlooked something, or are we talking about a bug here? Because for sure they would give you two copies so you could trade one of them

No elaboration possible - I just didn't notice them, and think I would have with four resources I knew Venice didn't have (the fourth being my whales). I'm almost positive I overlooked it, but can't see how.

Actually, thinking about it I recall that the second attempt Enrico made to embargo one of my luxes targeted nutmeg, so it must be tradeable. Well, probably. This is the guy who objected to my religion and voted to make it the world religion, and voted for a world fair when I had by far the best production city in the game. You'd almost think the guy was blind or something...

marioflag · Jul 9, 2013

Do the new resources appear on map and occupy a tile? If yes, they need a plantation to be available to Indonesia?

Montezumas Hat · Jul 9, 2013

The spice island resources are definitely tradeable, I'm trading Nutmeg to Zulu. My capital is also on a river, so I think they might be at least slight more likely to be on rivers.

Wow, Indonesia...

Cat Herder

Emperor

Chieftain

Warlord

Cat Herder

Deity

Deity

Warlord

King

King

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

History Addict

Chieftain

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