Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

Here is something I need to ask. Heroic Epic is currently set to require a unit of level 6. Does anyone else think this is a bit too high? In BTS, Heroic Epic only requires a unit of level 4 (10 XP). It is a bit easier to get a high-XP unit out of the blocks -- in fact, it's probably too easy and we might have to lower some XP from buildings -- but level 6 is the level for West Point (26 XP). I think we should lower HE to at least level 5 and possibly all the way back to level 4.
Definitely, I almost never build it. I think it doesn't hurt lowering it to 5, it might be OK once we lower XP from buildings. We can go down to 4 if necessary.
 
I think Heroic Epic is fine as it is. There should be some effort involved in getting a unit to that level to unlock it, and with the number of units roaming the AND battlefields, it is not as difficult as in base BtS.
Maybe set West Point to level 7 instead? By the time it becomes available, there should be enough high level units around anyway. (I have never had to wait for a unit to get promoted to build West Point)
 
Same as Noyyau here. Actually, i dont remember a single game in which i didnt build it before reinaissance... but i have a slight military play, so i may not be the best example. In fact, i think its not too dificult to reach that level fighting a few barbs and wars.
Anyways, 5-6, or 6-7, i find both reasonable.
 
We need to look at XP at all points. I think there is too much XP in the early game (especially with the early Military civics) and too much XP in the late game (Volunteer Army and Ultimate Soldiers are my biggest targets).

I would like to point out that Archery Range specifically covers unit types that are not covered by Barracks.
 
Same as Noyyau here. Actually, i dont remember a single game in which i didnt build it before reinaissance... but i have a slight military play, so i may not be the best example. In fact, i think its not too dificult to reach that level fighting a few barbs and wars.
Anyways, 5-6, or 6-7, i find both reasonable.

+1 here
 
I'm playing with some ideas to make a few of our Wonders more interesting. Here is an idea: World Trade Center currently provides +10% gold to all cities and 3 Gold resources.

What if we replaced this with +10% gold to the building city and a global -20% maintenance modifier? The net result would be to take a big chunk out of corporate maintenance costs. City maintenance can get high, but Corporations cost even more. The 20% is a best guess for now.

The only building that currently reduces global maintenance is the Federal Reserve, which is a national wonder. I like the idea of having a World Wonder that uses this effect as well.
 
Sounds much more interesting than the generic +:gold:% it has now.
 
I've been checking a few more Wonders. Burning Man needs to be dialed down a bit. I just did a check where it boosted my entire civilization's culture production by 60%. This is too much, even though it was in the late Transhuman before I got around to building it. I'm going to both remove the +10% culture and reduce the specialist bonus to +4. I think that will be a good place for now.

On the other hand, Woodstock needs to be increased a bit. 1000 culture in one shot is not much. I'm going to increase it to 3000. That will be enough for a couple border boosts to brand-new cities, while not so high a jump towards Legendary Culture (240,000 on Normal speed).

I'm also trying to create a Python routine so that even if you play with No Events, you can still get the bonus from Woodstock (its current bonus is actually an event with iWeight -1 so it triggers once as soon as the building is built). I can do the culture, but I'm not sure if I can do the anger the same. changeHurryAngerTimer doesn't have a way to specify the exact amount of anger, and I don't see any other way to set it using Python.
 
I made a new discovery. Using pPlayer.trigger in Python forces an event to occur even if the No Events game option is enabled. This gives me the Woodstock fix I was trying to achieve. I also want to use this for the Penicillin project and possibly Blarney Castle. All of these use Events with <iWeight> of -1, which means they automatically trigger if their conditions are met. <iWeight> -1 is normally used for the completion part of quests, so that the rewards trigger as soon as you have the requirements.

I vaguely remember working on this a long time ago, and I found something that triggered the event popup but didn't trigger the event effects. But this works, at least for Woodstock, and I'm fine with it. I'm still fiddling with Penicillin.
 
I think I found the problem with trying to trigger the Penicillin event. No Events also disables the <PythonCanDo> check that is necessary to have the event part only trigger when someone finishes the project. If I put in a second Penicillin event trigger with iWeight 0, so it never triggers in a game unless called, Penicillin will work the same whether or not No Events is checked. I know there are players who don't like random events, but this isn't a RANDOM event. I'm just using the Event mechanics to cover giving a free promotion to both current and future units.
 
The National Mint national wonder has a help text that says If a National Mint is captured by the enemy, they will recieve 10 times the normal amount of plunder. I don't see any mechanics that back this up, either in the XML or in the Python code; I also tried some quick tests in WorldBuilder and didn't get anything. I think we should just remove this text completely. I could be completely missing something.
 
I've got the Python code for the new version of Silk Road working. I'll have it in a build soon. These are the changes I decided on.
  • Tech requirement changes to Aristocracy + Calendar. This helps Aristocracy a little and allows me to remove the Silk Farm as a separate improvement. Silk Farm gets folded back into Plantation.
  • +100% gold goes away, as does +2 happiness from Silk. +3 culture and +1 Merchant slot get kept.
  • Add +1 commerce/3 connected foreign cities, maximum 15 commerce, same as Caravanserai. (CS could be capped a little lower. I don't completely agree with CS being as high as it is now.)
  • Add +1 gold from Caravanserai. This is to allow it to keep giving after it is built and if it is captured.
  • The Python routine builds Roads as follows:
    • Adds Roads to connect all sources of Silk you own to the building city by Road, if not connected or connected by only Cart Paths. If you get to Paved Roads before Silk Road is built, it won't downgrade anything.
    • Adds Roads to connect the building city to your capital by Road, again if not connected or connected by only Cart Paths.
    • Adds Roads to connect your capital to the tile on the same continent, that you have seen, and that has the biggest foreign, non-barbarian city on it. You do not have to know there is a city there. You do have to have seen the tile. This uses the game's pathing algorithms to generate a path for a hypothetical Spy unit that ignores enemies and danger, so the road can go through any number of players' territories. It cannot calculate a path to a tile that you have not seen.
This will make Silk Road much more interesting and less of a glorified National Wonder.
 
Here's a few more minor changes that I'm going to make in the next build.

Adam Smith's Trading Company: The cap on foreign trade maxes out at +125. This is so high that you would never reach it; it's 1 commerce per 4 cities, so you would need a map with 500 cities to get that high. I think we should just remove the cap and be done with it. Regular buildings should have lower caps, but Wonders should either have a cap you can meet, or no cap at all.

Alhambra: This currently goes obsolete at Railroad. I don't think this should go obsolete at all. It provides an extra Palace and +30% global defense. Railroad is slightly over 1 era from when Islam appears in the first place; Education is late-Medieval, and Railroad is early-Industrial. That is not good for a Wonder. It needs a longer lifespan. The one behavior that I am not sure I agree with is that religious wonders don't shut down if you change religions or choose a non-state-religion civic. There are four variables that decide how a building interacts with the presence of religions, but they only matter when constructing the building.

Bolshoi: I forgot to change this when I changed Opera House to upgrade Theatre. Opera House appears far enough before Bolshoi that the +2 culture to Theatre isn't very significant. I think +3 culture from Opera House would be better. (You also get a free Artist, so I think it counts as 1/2 a Wonder from the global bonus and 1/2 a Wonder from the free Artist.)

Great Wall: Add goes obsolete at Artillery. We discussed this before but never implemented it. I think Artillery is a good place for Great Wall to go obsolete. It gives you 3+ eras of barbarian protection (early Classical to mid-Industrial).
 
And here are the Wonders that I am trying to figure out what to do with.

Copernicus' Observatory: The problem here is that this is boring. It is extremely similar to Oxford University, which is a National Wonder. I have considered a generic Science bonus to all buildings, but that is extremely similar to Newton's University. One speculation that I had is that either Copernicus or Newton gives you 2 undiscovered, pre-Renaissance technologies. It would let you fill in your tech tree but not give you something cutting-edge like you can do with Oracle or Cheomseongdae.

Magellan's Voyage: Here I have an issue with XP stacking. I haven't looked carefully at Naval XP yet, but I do know that all of Magellan's Voyage, Trafalgar Square, West Point, and Secret Army Base can stack to create super-high-level naval units. I did not realize this until now, but Magellan also offers a big commerce bonus (+10 commerce and +10 science). I am reasonably certain that the removal of Magellan from Civ 4 was because its effect was translated into the literal +1 movement for circumnavigating the globe (in other words, actually pulling off the voyage) and the removal of all the Wonders named after persons to avoid conflicts with the Great Person system. One possible idea that I had was that completing Magellan's Voyage reveals all unrevealed Coast and Ocean tiles on the map.

Reichstag: I've been told several times that this is too strong. I agree and will tone it down somewhat. I just haven't figured out how yet.

SnowCastle of Kemi: This is slightly boring. Its only major effect is +100% gold production. I think that the 55-degrees minimum latitude requirement helps it out somewhat. It feels like it needs something. I don't quite know what.

Women's Suffrage: This is another unimaginative Wonder. Its effect is identical to Mt. Rushmore. I think a clever effect for this would be to generate a random Great Person immediately.

How do you think some of these ideas would work out?
 
Women's suffrage popping a random great person on build would be lovely. It'd also serve to reduce the excessive War :mad: reduction that's saturating AND.

Also, Magellan's Voyage could not just reveal all coast/ocean tiles on the map, but also give its builder the +1 movement for ships, IF it wasn't bestowed on someone else, that is.

With Reichstag, simply making the golden ages it gives last 1/4th of normal would be dandy. On Epic Speed with Mausoleum of Mausollos, that's 9 turns (out of 36 that'd be normally), and with Cheomseongdae, that's 10 turns. It'd be a cute little boost, but it wouldn't be that OP monstrosity that currently exists.

For Copernicus' Observatory, platyping's version of it had put a zodiac constellation-related random bonus as a prize for building it. Try looking into that, perhaps?

As for Snowcastle of Kemi... commerce bonus on all ice tiles in your empire. Or at least, the city you build it in. Like the Great Mosque of Djenne/Machu Picchu?
 
Women's suffrage popping a random great person on build would be lovely. It'd also serve to reduce the excessive War :mad: reduction that's saturating AND.
Great idea!
Also, Magellan's Voyage could not just reveal all coast/ocean tiles on the map, but also give its builder the +1 movement for ships, IF it wasn't bestowed on someone else, that is.
Reveal would be enough, imo.
With Reichstag, simply making the golden ages it gives last 1/4th of normal would be dandy. On Epic Speed with Mausoleum of Mausollos, that's 9 turns (out of 36 that'd be normally), and with Cheomseongdae, that's 10 turns. It'd be a cute little boost, but it wouldn't be that OP monstrosity that currently exists.
How about a single turn of "We love the (ruler)" event? Would be unique enough.
For Copernicus' Observatory, platyping's version of it had put a zodiac constellation-related random bonus as a prize for building it. Try looking into that, perhaps?
I feel that a little too fantasy like.
Do we have any wonder giving +1:hammers: for scientists?
As for Snowcastle of Kemi... commerce bonus on all ice tiles in your empire. Or at least, the city you build it in. Like the Great Mosque of Djenne/Machu Picchu?
Sounds good.
 
I think that the Kemi's ability should be expanded to Tundra, otherwise it's really useless.
 
I think that the Kemi's ability should be expanded to Tundra, otherwise it's really useless.

Ice tiles are the most useless tiles in your empire. At least on Desert, you can build stuff like farms, or groundwater wells, and so on. With Ice? Only watermills... if you have rivers! Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
 
Yes, exactly that's why the Kemi's ability should be expanded over to Tundra. It'd be a much more useful wonder that way.

Also, it's watermills, not windmills :)
 
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