Starting Experience

I've done some looking at the starting XP for units. We have a lot of XP floating around at all points in the game, and I think it needs to be pared back. Removing some of the starting XP makes combat experience more valuable, makes it more of an accomplishment to get level-limited buildings (Heroic Epic and West Point), and makes new units less able to eclipse old ones just by being produced.

In BTS, the amount of XP you can start with is actually fairly limited. The default is +3/4 XP from one building: Barracks (Land), Drydock (Water), Airport (Air). This serves as a baseline since there is nothing that prevents you from building these buildings once you have the right technology.

On top of the baseline, you can add any or all of the following:

• Stable adds +2 XP to Mounted units.
• Vassalage adds +2 XP to all units.
• Theocracy adds +2 XP to all units if the city has your state religion.
• Pentagon adds +2 XP per unit.
• Great General adds +2 XP to all units produced that city.
• West Point adds +4 XP to one city only.

Any one of these will get you units with one promotion. You have to combine Barracks with at least one of the others to get 2 promotions. To get 3 promotions, you need to be Charismatic, or combine Stable AND Vassalage AND Theocracy AND Pentagon for Mounted units only (and Cavalry is much weaker than the Infantry available when Pentagon appears), or settle some Great Generals, or have one city with West Point. I like to think of this as a layer system. You can see how many layers it takes to get to the next threshold.

I'm willing to go a little higher on the XP than BTS goes, but I find in the endgame, it is easily possible to get units with close to 30 XP without spending Great Generals (29 is my current point, but there a couple of possible sources that I am not using). This is too much.

So I'm going to do what I do best and that is take apart the starting XP system, breaking it down by era and unit type and class. This way, we can find where we can cut some of our starting XP.

The first place to start is the land units of the Ancient Era. There are four classes of units to consider:

• Archery
• Melee
• Mounted
• Siege

Recon units are available, but closely parallel Melee units, and their lower strength means they are not likely to be important battlefield forces. I mainly use Recon units to get Medic I and, later in the game, Sentry from Adventurers. Their lower strength makes them less likely to be selected as the "best defender" in a stack and possibly destroyed by a powerful or lucky enemy.

In the Ancient Era, XP comes from the following sources:

• Barracks: +3 XP for Melee and Recon units, +2 XP for Mounted units
• Stable: +2 XP for Mounted units
• Warrior Caste: +2 XP for all units
• Mercenaries: +3 XP for all units

This can add up to 6 XP for Melee units (Barracks + Mercenaries), or 7 XP for Mounted units (Barracks + Stable + Mercenaries). This allows 2 promotions. I don't want this so early.

Here is what I think we should do:

• Barracks is reduced to +2 XP for Melee and Recon units, and no XP for Mounted units. This will still allow you to train Melee units with 1 promotion if you are using Conscription.
• Mercenaries is reduced to +2 XP. This will get you one promotion without Barracks/Stable, but will not get you 2 promotions with both.

This will change maximum starting XP to 4 XP total for Melee and Mounted units, and 2 XP for Archery and Siege. Archery and Siege get their bonuses in the Classical Era.

Let me know if this is a good starting point.

Good enough, so far. It ought to throttle the insane XP gain this early on.

Seems good so far.

I have a feeling this will be painful (especially for the later eras), I really like having promotions available... gives me a nice way to make units more specialized or unique. And most importantly, to be able to have the "elite low numbers army" alternative to simply attempting to outproduce the enemy and win a war of attrition.

For later eras, it's easy to have a small, but elite number army: it's called machineguns.

Tolni said:

For later eras, it's easy to have a small, but elite number army: it's called machineguns.

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Those have a counter: Marines.

Unless you beef them up with something else, but that ruins the purpose of small, yet elite armies...

Wait, what? I've never seen AI building Marines. Then again, most of the time, I'm so ahead of them it doesn't really happen, so...

Noyyau said:

I have a feeling this will be painful (especially for the later eras), I really like having promotions available... gives me a nice way to make units more specialized or unique. And most importantly, to be able to have the "elite low numbers army" alternative to simply attempting to outproduce the enemy and win a war of attrition.

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By later eras you'd probably have had some wars generating Great Generals to fulfill that purpose. I think the main concern is mostly in the early eras, since there's EXP all over the place quite early on - wars or not.

Noyyau said:

I have a feeling this will be painful (especially for the later eras), I really like having promotions available... gives me a nice way to make units more specialized or unique. And most importantly, to be able to have the "elite low numbers army" alternative to simply attempting to outproduce the enemy and win a war of attrition.

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I don't want units to get hyper-specialized too quickly, and with the extra promotions that we have, it is certainly possible. As just one example avoiding this, Formation I deliberately requires Combat II. This is to make it harder to get Formation-promoted Spearmen/Pikemen/Riflemen as hard cavalry-counters. I'm not going to bring the XP curve all the way down to BTS's level, but I am cutting a few points here and there.

I'm really looking at three possible levels: the baseline level, which is the XP you get from buildings that you can't miss out on and should be just at a threshold; the max level, which is what you get if you pull out all the stops and should also be just at a threshold; and then try to find the most likely point in-between, which should be close to a threshold but not over it.

What I am trying to avoid is something like my current setup. I have a game going that is producing Bolter Infantry with 29 XP and a total of 12 promotions from the get-go:

• Blitz (innate on Bolter Infantry)
• City Garrison I (free from Protective leader)
• Drill I (free from Protective leader)
• Medic I (free from Red Cross)
• Stealth I (free from National Redoubt)
• Heal (from event triggered by finishing Penicillin project)
• Combat AI 1.0 (free from Augmentation Center)
• City Garrison II (first promo, 2 XP threshold)
• City Garrison III (second promo, 5 XP threshold)
• Stealth II (third promo, 10 XP threshold)
• Stealth III (fourth promo, 17 XP threshold)
• Sensors I (fifth promo, 26 XP threshold)

This is probably an extreme example, but it's what I don't want to see happening.

Vokarya said:

I don't want units to get hyper-specialized too quickly, and with the extra promotions that we have, it is certainly possible. As just one example avoiding this, Formation I deliberately requires Combat II. This is to make it harder to get Formation-promoted Spearmen/Pikemen/Riflemen as hard cavalry-counters. I'm not going to bring the XP curve all the way down to BTS's level, but I am cutting a few points here and there.

I'm really looking at three possible levels: the baseline level, which is the XP you get from buildings that you can't miss out on and should be just at a threshold; the max level, which is what you get if you pull out all the stops and should also be just at a threshold; and then try to find the most likely point in-between, which should be close to a threshold but not over it.

What I am trying to avoid is something like my current setup. I have a game going that is producing Bolter Infantry with 29 XP and a total of 12 promotions from the get-go:

• Blitz (innate on Bolter Infantry)
• City Garrison I (free from Protective leader)
• Drill I (free from Protective leader)
• Medic I (free from Red Cross)
• Stealth I (free from National Redoubt)
• Heal (from event triggered by finishing Penicillin project)
• Combat AI 1.0 (free from Augmentation Center)
• City Garrison II (first promo, 2 XP threshold)
• City Garrison III (second promo, 5 XP threshold)
• Stealth II (third promo, 10 XP threshold)
• Stealth III (fourth promo, 17 XP threshold)
• Sensors I (fifth promo, 26 XP threshold)

This is probably an extreme example, but it's what I don't want to see happening.

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If you had Charismatic as a trait, you could squeeze out a 13th promotion no problem!

For the Classical Era, this is what I left off with at the end of the Ancient Era.

There are three sources of XP in the Classical Era.

• Archery Range gives +3 XP to Archery units and +2 XP to Siege units.
• Arena gives +1 XP to Melee units.
• Knight's Stable gives a net +1 XP to Mounted units (+3 XP, replacing Stables' +2 XP).

The problem is that all of these allow you to reach the 5-XP threshold, where you get 2 promotions.

The Knight's Stable can stay, because it matches the precedent set in BTS. The Stable in BTS gives 2 XP and stacks with Barracks for 5 XP to Mounted units, but is not available until the Classical Era. I think mounted units are more one-dimensional than other units, and so need a slight boost.

The other two get changed:

• Archery Range is reduced to +2 XP for both Archery and Siege units.
• Arena gives no XP at all.

This keeps Archery, Melee, and Siege units topping out at 4 XP, and allows Mounted units to break through to 5. It's still less than the 6-8 XP you could get before the changes.

I'll move on to the Medieval Era. This is where we stood at the end of the Classical Era/beginning of the Medieval Era.

There are three sources of additional XP in the Medieval Era: Civics, Asatru, and the Royal Tournament.

Civics are the big source of XP in the Medieval Era. There are three different civics in different categories that give XP:

• Vassalage (Military) gives +4 XP.
• Feudal (Society) gives +1 XP.
• Intolerant (Religion) gives +2 XP with your state religion.

Asatru gives a total of +4 XP to Melee units (2 from Asatru Monastery, 2 from the Sagas) and +2 XP to all other units.

Royal Tournament gives +4 XP to Mounted units, but as it is a National Wonder, it can only be built in one city. It serves as a prototype of West Point as Royal Tournament is limited to 1 unit type and goes obsolete just when West Point is available.

This all adds up to a lot of XP. Getting every possible source is currently worth 11 XP for Siege units, 12 XP for Archery, 15 XP for Melee, and 18 XP for Mounted. 18 XP is four promotions, which I think is too much for this stage. I've already cut 1-3 XP off the top by reducing Mercenaries, Arena, and Barracks/Archery Range. We need to cut more, though.

This is what I would cut:

• Reduce Vassalage to +3 XP. This is still 1 XP above Mercenaries/Warrior Caste.
• Feudal gives no XP at all.

I want to leave Asatru and Intolerant intact. XP is what differentiates Asatru from the rest of the religions, and Intolerant is following in the footsteps of the Theocracy civic in BTS.

Scenarios:
These are the scenarios I am judging the most likely to see at this point in the game, so this is what I used to calibrate the numbers.

Barracks/Archery Range/Knight's Stable + Vassalage: 5 XP, 6 for Mounted. This is enough for 2 promotions, and matches what you would see at the same time in BTS.

Barracks/Archery Range + Intolerant + Conscription: 4 XP for drafted units, 1 promotion. Conscription is the only civic at this point that allows drafting. You need additional help to get the 2nd promotion (Charismatic, Asatru, settled Great General).

Barracks/Archery Range/Knight's Stable + Vassalage + Intolerant + Asatru Monastery + The Sagas: 9 XP for Archery and Siege units. This is 1 XP short of a third promotion. Mounted units get 10 XP, and Melee units get 11. This is enough for 3 promotions, but you have to hit every possible XP source. Missing out on The Sagas or Intolerance leaves you short.

Knight's Stable + Vassalage + Royal Tournament: 10 XP for Mounted units. Regardless of whether or not you got Asatru, this gives you Mounted units with 3 promotions from one city.

This is the XP curve that I left off with at the end of the Medieval Era and shading into the Renaissance. At best, Archery and Siege units could get 2 promotions, with Melee units picking up 3 if in full Asatru mode (Asatru Monastery + The Sagas + Intolerant) and Mounted getting 3 with either a lot of Asatru help or Royal Tournament.

The Renaissance Era has the first shift in unit types: Archery and Melee units are replaced by Gunpowder. Most XP sources take care of this shift easily, but the Barracks to Garrison shift is a necessary hurdle if you want maximum-XP units. You have to decide if you want lower-XP Gunpowder units (by getting Matchlock first) or lower-XP Archery and Melee units (by getting Leadership first and building Garrisons before getting Matchlock).

This is what I think we should do with the Renaissance Era XP sources:

• Lower Garrison to +2 XP for Gunpowder and Recon units.
• Delete the Drill Yard completely.
• Delete the 1 XP from Standing Army.
• Lower Volunteer Army to +3 XP.

Garrison loses an XP to keep it level with Barracks and Archery Range. You aren't getting any more XP, but you are getting them for a new unit type. Drill Yard is deleted because it isn't necessary any more. The reason I created it was to make up for the XP lost by changing Barracks to Garrison. With Barracks no longer giving XP to Mounted units, Drill Yard doesn't have a reason to exist and gives more XP than necessary.

I had to do a lot of comparisons between Vassalage, Standing Army, and Volunteer Army to decide what the right balance point was.

Switching from Vassalage to Standing Army gives you a couple of drawbacks. You lose some Great General production (going from +50% to +25%), you have that military units under Standing Army are produced with Food (I think this is a mix of good and bad), you pay a little more for military (going from -50% distant supply cost to -25%), you pay more in city maintenance (+10% for your capital continent and +25% for overseas), and you lose your unlimited Noble specialists.
The benefits, however, are increased military production (going from -25% to +25% and can draft), stability is increased (national instability goes from -1 to +1, but local instability goes from +1 to -3 and the distance penalty is reduced by 20%), and your units get +0.05 XP per turn in a city. So I think it is fair to delete the 1 XP from Standing Army, leaving the +2 XP from the Parade Grounds. This means you are 1 XP behind Vassalage when starting out, but make it back 20 turns later (on Normal speed) and then increase after that.

Volunteer Army is another question mark. +5 XP was simply too much. The total XP for the future comes out a lot fairer if it is reduced to +3. This still gives you 2 promotions for Gunpowder units with a Garrison and nothing else. Its other big draw is -50% war weariness. Its stability is good overall (-1 local, -2 national instability, so it isn't positive in either category), it doesn't have any unhappiness (Vassalage is -1 overall, Standing Army is -2 in your biggest cities), but Volunteer Army gives -15% military production and has High upkeep compared to Medium for Vassalage and Standing Army.
Volunteer Army might require some more tinkering, but I don't want it to give as much XP as it currently does. Overall, I'm not sure how much better it is compared to Vassalage. I'd say VA is slightly better.

I am leaving Brandenburg Gate and West Point alone. The Gate is a World Wonder so you are competing against all the other civilizations for it, and West Point is one city.

The total effect of all my cuts so far is to reduce Gunpowder units from a maximum XP of 20 (Garrison 3, Asatru 4, Volunteer Army 5, Feudal 1, Intolerant 2, Brandenburg Gate 1, West Point 4) to 16 (Garrison 2, Asatru 4, Volunteer Army 3, Intolerant 2, Brandenburg Gate 1, West Point 4). You can easily get 2 promotions with Garrison + VA, and can get 3 promotions out of West Point with another boost. Mounted units drop from 20 (same stats as Gunpowder, except 2 XP from Asatru switched to the Drill Yard) to 15 -- not enough for 4 promotions. Siege units go from 17 to 14.

So at this point, 2 promotions are easy, 3 promotions are possible with some work, but a 4th promotion out of the blocks is impossible to achieve without extra expenditures (Great Generals or real combat). Especially, West Point is in the exact point that I want; able to and likely to push one city over the 10-XP threshold for the 3rd promotion under most terms, but if running in all-out Asatru war mode (The Sagas and Intolerant) it falls between the levels.

Could you add the +0.05 XP per turn in a city for VA too?

Zeta Nexus said:

Could you add the +0.05 XP per turn in a city for VA too?

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I thought about that, but I feel like that should be Standing Army's unique feature, especially in the late game when Parade Grounds goes obsolete (at Networking). I'd like to leave some of the middle civics viable. The early civics (the first 2, maybe 3 options) are the ones that drop off the radar, but after that, it becomes a balancing act.

The Industrial Era is in reasonably good shape overall, except for one particular place.

Here's what I left off with, going into the Industrial Era.

Nothing changes in the early part of the Industrial. In the middle of the Industrial, The Sagas go obsolete (at Automatic Weapons) and Asatru Monastery is replaced by School. So unless you are trying to eke out every single XP, Asatru isn't a force any more.

Also towards the end of the Industrial, the Mounted category is replaced by the Wheeled and Tracked categories. The Knight's Stable goes obsolete before the Military Base appears. The Military Base is the only class-specific XP source for Wheeled and Tracked units. I like that the first round of motorized units (Motorcycle, Motorized Infantry, Armored Car, Early Tank) doesn't get to immediately benefit from a class-specific booster; this is the "you can develop the weapons, but it takes time to develop the tactics" idea. It's the same principle as Archery Range not appearing until Athletics.

The big XP jackpot for the Industrial Era is the Logistics tech. It offers three different XP sources. Military Base is worth +1 XP over the Garrison, and Pentagon is worth an additional +2 XP empire-wide. I am fine with these staying where they are.

Military Base + Volunteer Army + Brandenburg Gate + Pentagon is 9 XP total. This is not enough for 3 promotions without another XP source. Intolerant would work, or a not-yet-obsolete Asatru Monastery for Gunpowder units, or your one city with West Point.

Another scenario would be Military Base + Intolerant + Mobilization (so no XP from your military civic). This "modern crusade" would be worth 5 XP, or enough for 2 promotions. You could get 3 with West Point and either Brandenburg Gate or Pentagon.

The place where the nerf fairy needs to come down and swing the nerf magic wand is Ultimate Soldiers. Ultimate Soldiers is currently worth a staggering +8 XP. The corporation alone is +2 XP, and the Ultimate Soldiers Trainer is an additional +6 for Land units. Air and Naval units only get +3, but that's still +5 XP over the maximum without the corporation. This is way too much and needs to come down.

Here is what I think we should do to Ultimate Soldiers:

• Ultimate Soldiers gives no XP by itself for just having the corporation in the city.
• Ultimate Soldiers Trainer is lowered to +4 XP for Land units. This way, you don't get the XP without some investment.
• Ultimate Soldiers Trainer replaces Combat Simulator and Holographic Combat Simulator. This means that, while Ultimate Soldiers has a fairly large early effect, everyone else can catch up later on. It decreases the maximum XP you can get on any one starting unit, but it allows you to get to that maximum faster. You also would not have to spend production on the Combat Simulator and Holographic Combat Simulator, or jump through their requirements, and can churn out more units.

Even with Ultimate Soldiers at +4 XP, it is just possible to get to 4 promotions with US and WP (3 from Military Base + 3 from Volunteer Army + 1 from Brandenburg Gate + 2 from Pentagon + 4 from West Point + 4 from Ultimate Soldiers = 17 XP). Getting this requires 2 World Wonders (Brandenburg Gate and Pentagon) and a Corporation that requires spending a Great General. This is still much better than the 28 XP that was possible before I made these cuts.

This is what I wound up with. The max XP is including every single source, including Intolerant, pre-cuts Feudal, and unreplaced Asatru Monastery. It also includes West Point, so it is only going to apply to one city.

Vokarya said:

The place where the nerf fairy needs to come down and swing the nerf magic wand is Ultimate Soldiers.

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Oh, man! I love this sour humor of yours. It kicks in so suddenly that it always rocks

I'm okay with all those. Maybe...
What is the bonus for having Ultimate Soldiers in a city without its building? Wouldn't it be better to have +1Xp from the corporation and only +3 from Ultimate Soldiers Trainer . I think all corporations should have a bonus without its building already.

Zeta Nexus said:

Oh, man! I love this sour humor of yours. It kicks in so suddenly that it always rocks

I'm okay with all those. Maybe...
What is the bonus for having Ultimate Soldiers in a city without its building? Wouldn't it be better to have +1Xp from the corporation and only +3 from Ultimate Soldiers Trainer . I think all corporations should have a bonus without its building already.

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Ultimate Soldiers provides +15% unit production in addition to its XP bonus. I'm leaving that as the bonus for having the corporation. US also does provide a small bonus of +0.50 science per Steel/Vulcanized Rubber/Lead and a penalty of -2 happiness in the city. By this point (very late Industrial, early Modern) you should be able to soak small levels of unhappiness.

That Ultimate Soldiers nerf is harsh.

I propose to modify one of the existing corporations (Bullseye) to be converted into a competitor military corp. (It had already been talked about recently, though I can't remember in which thread)

Maybe one corp could focus more on EXP, the other more on production boosts? Or give a free promotion rather than generic XP.