SANCTA diplomacy

MS Paint is the only picture editing program I have, let alone can use. So I guess that rules me out. :p

Anyway, I guess we should send them a reply soon. Maybe they could even do the seal for us, if we asked nicely. ;)
 
Drafted message:

Greetings SANCTA,

Sorry for the delay. We are happy to accept the treaty in its present form. Long may our alliance live! :D

The only unfortunate thing is that we don't have a seal at the moment... hopefully we'll make one soon. ;)

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
 
Our approval starts to take too much time. Unless someone has time to make the seal I would just send the message and say that we don't have a seal.
 
Yeah, don't want to get them worried. Tell them we may make one in a little while. :p
 
Sent the above message to SANCTA. :)
 
From SANCTA:

Dear Saturn Allies, The Ninja’s salute our new brothers! Thanks for your response on the treaty. We’d be happy to help you draft your own seal, if you’d like? We’ve attached a couple samples and would be happy to customize it for you based on your feedback. Regardless, we consider the treaty official and are very excited to be working with you. :band: :ninja: As part of our alliance, we're informing you of a potential situation with Kaz. One of their chariots turned up (this turn) next to a barb city halfway between our civs that we have been staking out with a bunch of axes. As you can imagine, things are a little tense atm between us. Our problem is that we can't afford to let them have that city site. If they get it, then we will be hemmed into our peninsula, and will not have a land route to you, whereas they will be able to expand into a vast quantity of land and ultimately will grow into your lands. Combined with us being unable to support you (we will only be able to reach you by galleys), and Cavs Carricks that are capable of boating both of us, giving them that city site is completely unacceptable to us, and maybe to you. So we have sent them an ultimatum. Here it is:
Spoiler :
Namaste Donsig, The Ninjas salute the Great Nation of Kazakhstan. We have just sighted your chariot in the centerish area – you’ve probably caught sight of our axemen on the hills North and West of you. What you can’t see (yet), is that there is a size one barbarian town there, another axeman just beyond your line of sight, and a 4th axeman only a few turns away. As evidenced by this commitment of forces, this city is of strategic importance to us. We’d already be garrisoning it, but the ridiculous barbarian governor has apparently put a low priority on food and we’re waiting for the city to grow so we can capture it. The sudden appearance of your chariot has therefore caused no small amount of consternation among the Ninjas. I won’t lie to you – this letter is an effort by the calmer members of the ruling council to prevent an ugly little war that I’m sure neither of us want. I really don’t want to threaten you – or just ask for a favor –but the team is ready to switch to HBR and go to full out war mode as they have had their sights on Angle for a very long time. :ack: If it wasn't for my current role as Daimyo of State, this letter wouldn't even be on it's way. In exchange for your cooperation, I’m willing to offer you a documented treaty that we won’t found any cities (or capture further barbarian ones) south of the location in dispute… but I’ll need a quick response from you to avoid holding up the game / having the Ninjas vote for something rash in lieu of being able to sell them on a peaceful option. Can I count on you for a quick response? Best, General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA
We hope to convince you to take an aggressive position with them regarding Feudalism; preferably something along the lines of telling them to back off and accept our claims, or they don't get Feudalism. Without Feudalism, we would not have too much trouble dealing with them militarily, but with feud they would most likely be able to eventually beat us. We would like to chat with you about this situation so we can discuss it more thoroughly, but the above should give you the basic overview of our position. What do you think? Are you willing to get aggressive with them on this issue with us? Please don’t hesitate to write with any questions. We’d like to coordinate diplomacy on this with you, but we had to send at least our initial letter asap due to the very crunched time frame on this. Your Allies, General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA First winds of the storm United strength to oppose Stronger in the end
Spoiler Logo ideas :
Nice of them to make the images for us. :)

Not sure about whether we can actually do anything to threaten Kaz, or whether it'd be worth trying. How on earth would we phrase that message? "Don't take the barbarian city that SANCTA wants or else we won't give you Feudalism"? They could reasonably argue that it's none of our business, and that we're being dicks for bringing up a completely irrelevant deal for a situation that has nothing to do with us.

But do share your thoughts...
 

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Let's side with Sacta, we're not trading much in the future with Kazks.
 
Our ultimatum doesn't make sense to me. Let's just see how Kazs react to SANCTA's Ultimatum and then make the desicion.

edit. Naturally we support SANCTA fully, but I don't see how blackmailing Kazs would do any good for us or even SANCTA. I don't think the barb city would be that important to Kazs. They would just give it up until Feudalism has been delivered. End result would be worse than in a case where we just betray them. Our reputation would be severly damaged and now they would also have Feudalism.
 
From SANCTA:

Dear Saturn Allies,
we just got this from the Kazakhs... just keeping you in the loop:

Greetings Daimyo General_W and the Great Nation of Ninjas,

Thank you for the note explaning your team's position regarding the barb city. We fully understand your position and why you are interested in this city. We also appreciate the information you shared with us to highlight your interest and to avoid an unecessary conflict.
We have decided to follow your example and in the same spirit we will share with you: This is far from the first time we have been to these lands.

This area was well known to us long before you ever ventured here and before the city in question even existed. The copper, pigs, corn, cows and bananas certainly make it an intriguing location. We were aware of the barb city from the moment of it's inception and we have been watching... watching and waiting patiently for the moment when this city could join our glorious and peaceful Khanate.

This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.

We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.

It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.

So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.
donsig of Kazakhstan
 
So I expect SANCTA wants us to send a message to Kaz now... bummer, that's going to make us look quite bad. On the plus side, we didn't really want to give them Feudalism anyway, so if the deal turns to custard then it doesn't really matter for us.
 
Chat with Krill from SANCTA:

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
so far our team members aren't particularly happy with blackmailing Kaz over Feudalism... they'd prefer a more generic warning if we do send something to Kaz...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
the problem is it's a really dirty trick to pull, even on a rival
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
but it's still early days
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
What happens if the barb city is razed? You guys rebuild it soon afterwards, right?
Chris says:
Not really, it all depends where teh Kaz settler is
Chris says:
If they have a settler in the FoW, then they could plant it in such a way to block us resetling the city
Chris says:
and they could do this next turn
Chris says:
All we really need is time
Chris says:
in 10 turns or so we can have the city replanted and second city down to defend the enterance to our lands
Chris says:
If Kaz will back off for that long we should be OK.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ah, ok
Chris says:
Basically all we need is Kaz to realise the threat: if they don;t back down they won;t have a chance to win this game
Chris says:
We won't really have much of a chance either, come to that; both of us would be gifting Cav the win, essentially
Chris says:
But they will be thinking: We are getting fued shortly, they won;t be able to do anything against longbows
Chris says:
Ultimately, we gave you the reasons why we can't let them have that city; both of us will lose in the long term. That's why we are being so aggressive about this right now. If this does have to come down to war then it probably will do, simply because of preemptive self defense.
Chris says:
OK, it'll be a very farsighted preemptive self defense, but that's what it'd be
Chris says:
Right now we do understand the dilemma you are in; it is a no win situation
Chris says:
but it's also a no win situation for Kaz, and for us
 
From SANCTA:

Namaste Saturn,
The Ninja’s salute our continued effort in what is becoming an increasingly hostile environment.

As you have seen the Kazakhs are not playing nice. Krill chatted with you today.
Time is of the essence now as when our turn comes we need to know whether or not to kill their chariot (and thus go to war).

As such we humbly ask you send them a letter (and provide us a copy) being very stern about the repurcussions of them not backing down. If you would like to discuss the letters with us, we are available on MSN to chat with so that we can design both letters to have maximum impact. We hope that this diplomatic action, if successful, will lead to Kaz backing down for the immediate future, so that we all get to fulfill our obligations to one another

Following your letter we will once again send something along these lines (responding to their letter)

Their points in italics, ours In bold (if post in your forum it is easier to read).

Spoiler :

This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.

No, The Oracle directed our first scout here, as such the territory is ours.

We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.

You were in the shadows because it wasn't your territory, hence why as you approached it from the second time (our third time) we had units there, and many more on the way.

It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.

While you are the technology leader, our MFG is 2 times yours. Our Forges are set up. Our Power is through the roof. We will not give up our plans for the city. But are you willing to give up your chance at winning the game for it?

So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.

No, razing the city will cause conflict. So we say again will you withdraw? If not we are going to war.


We would like to include the lack of feudalism threat but will not do so without your blessing.

Please advise on how we are to proceed.


Your Allies,
Memphus, Shogun, SANCTA
Words from mouths afar
Meant for distant minds and ears
Conspiring for good
 
I do like Plako's suggestion to tell SANCTA to say they're aware that there's a tech arrangement between us and Kaz, and that they will do their best to convince us to cancel it if anything goes awry. It sounds more reasonable and less dickish coming from them, yet it still gets a very firm point across. Thoughts?
 
We'll need to get answer to SANCTA soon and also soon our turn or pause to do diplomacy. Here is draft message.

Greetings SANCTA,

We fully support your efforts in securing the barb city. After consideration it does not seem optimal solution to blackmail directly Kazakhstan with Feudalism trade. However we suggest that you add to your ultimatum a part that warns Kazs that you know about Feudalism trade and you'll do everything to convince us to give it up unless they back off. What do you think about this alternative?

Kind regards,
... of Saturn
 
Sounds good to me. See the Kaz thread...
 
Sent above message to SANCTA... figured we can't delay too much.
 
Conversation with Memphus:

Memphus says:
Yo! get the pm of ivory for silver?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yeah, sent a reply
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
will get to it soon
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
so many things to do this afternoon, sorry
Memphus says:
no problem! take you time
Memphus says:
(beer) it is 11PM for me
Memphus says:

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
heh
Memphus says:
so it seems Kaz missed the message
Memphus says:

John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
actually speaking of that, they just sent us a really ridiculous message
Memphus says:
really?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
trying to be all friendly, saying that they had a situation, and asking that we don't trade with you for the time being, suggesting we think about researching something else to trade with them... honestly, how guillible do they think we are when they and their allies have such a big tech lead?
Memphus says:
yeah i mean really they are WAYYY out front
Memphus says:
so we thought we were reasonable
Memphus says:
Angle is closer to us than them...
Memphus says:
we already have 3 untis there (they have 1 that just showed)
Memphus says:
thus it is our territory... (cav did the same to us but we backed off sicne it was closer to them) and they were there first
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
full message fyi
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Greetings Team Saturn,

We are writing to tell you we are having some difficulties with SANCTA. They are threatening a confrontation if we don't cede some strategic territory to them. Right now we kind of feel like Czechoslovakia having to decide whether or not to give up the Sudetenland...

Anyways, we are hoping you will not aid the Ninjas with tech trades in the near future. We'd also like to
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
explore more trades between our two teams. How is progress going on feudalism? Do you know what turn we will be able to complete the math for feudalism trade?

We're not sure how much exploration you've managed. It would be nice if someone invented maps. The reports we have from our own explorers indicate your country is near three others and the land of the Ninjas (aka SANCTA) lies between your
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
country and ours. Do these reports jive with your own?

donsig of Kazakhstan
Memphus says:
so how do you intend to respond?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
still yet to discuss... only got the message a couple of hours ago
Memphus says:
cool
Memphus says:
seems you guys are the deciding power in this game
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
but personally I'm fairly ticked off at their attitude towards us, and how stupid they seem to think we are
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
we haven't even talked to them in ages, and they come along all chirpy when they've clearly already chosen their side
Memphus says:
yeah i mean our forums have been lit up trying to figure out what happened to you so early (we are guesing barb killed settler?)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
how do you mean?
Memphus says:
cause your team is very skilled. but seems to have gotten a run of bad luck
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
wasn't as bad as a lost settler
Memphus says:
well early on you mentioned about bad luck and then missing CoL was brutal
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
but we just kept missing out on things, and could never explore
Memphus says:
yeah that sucks!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
that was the main issue for us... if we'd met other teams earlier, we could have traded techs earlier. That's half the battle in getting ahead
Memphus says:
and us.
Memphus says:
but it seems between the two of us we can catch up pretty quickly.
Memphus says:
especially if we can swing MS
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yeah
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
although I doubt that, watching the tech screen
Memphus says:
yeah but we arn't teching yet fully we have a plan
Memphus says:
CoL was critical for us
Memphus says:
we can discuss further in the next 10 turns, but lets just say that over the next 20 turns our science rate almost quadruples
Memphus says:
(and any and all techs come right your way)
Memphus says:
though we may have to detour to HBR and really hit Kaz...but even so if they don't have feud they can't muster too must defence
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
righto, sounds good
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Okay, official thought that the majority seem to agree with at the moment...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Greetings SANCTA,

We fully support your efforts in securing the barb city. After consideration it does not seem optimal solution to blackmail directly Kazakhstan with Feudalism trade. However we suggest that you add to your ultimatum a part that warns Kazs that you know about Feudalism trade and you'll do everything to convince us to give it up unless they back off. What do you think about this
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
alternative?

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
Memphus says:
works for me!
Memphus says:
so our plan this turn (so you guys know)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
Personally I'm becoming more convinced that a direct and firm word from ourselves to Kaz would be preferable, but some of the rest of my team have some reservations
Memphus says:
and that makes sense!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
But for now, you're welcome to state the facts regarding what's gone on with the Feudalism discussion
Memphus says:
so our plan is to kill their chariot this turn (or they could say they are backing off then raze the city themselves)
Memphus says:
then send the letter like we outlined to you, but we will now add in the part of the Feud trade, and if they don't back down they are in risk of losing it (i.e. if they attack us or approach on Angle any more)
Memphus says:
sound fair?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
absolutely
Memphus says:
perfect glad we coudl work this out reasonably! (and not with no contact and then buddy buddy when the time calls...aka kaz)
Memphus says:
well have a great turn! we will copy you on our letter to Kaz
Memphus says:
also please do the silverfor ivoryy trade if you can
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yeah, don't worry, we would never even consider taking Kaz seriously...
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
will do so as long as it doesn't make any of our cities unhappy
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
will have to last a minimum of 10 turns, remember
Memphus says:
it should be a wash +1 for +1
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
game mechanics
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
righto
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
we'll have a second silver soon enough anyway
Memphus says:
perfect!
Memphus says:
and now you can build forges! huge advantage over everyone else
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
although a bit expensive for some of our cities at the moment
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
but still nice
Memphus says:
btw we get collosus in 6 or 7 turns (it would seem pretty obvious we are going for it)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep
Memphus says:
any wonders you gusy want, so we can not make plans for them?
Memphus says:
like Parthenon? Temple of Artemis? (we figure kaz is beelining GL)
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yeah, we figured either they or their allies were
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
no plans at the moment
Memphus says:
cav we figure is going for HG
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
we desperately need to expand
Memphus says:
good plan!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ok
Memphus says:
you know there is furs to your east right?
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep
Memphus says:
ok cool. and near our borders, to your SE is spices.
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
cool
Memphus says:
so we can see how you expand, and who is closer in ~20 turns. there is 2 spices so whoever gets send the other spice over
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
we have Incense too
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
2 of them
Memphus says:
nice. we have sugar to be hooked up so you get that
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
cool
Memphus says:
i am excited / nervous for you to play
Memphus says:
cause we have a mid 70% odds agaisn't kaz on our attack
Memphus says:
we have a secodn unit to finish it off, but don't want to lose an axe
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
ah, right
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
any promotions available?
Memphus says:
no...he is a Woody III as well so if we lose it will hurt.
Memphus says:
but show kaz how serious we are!
Memphus says:
havign a land route between us is critical!
Memphus says:
we know you would be batting just as hard if it was you parked outside the city!
John - Lord Parkin - emp says:
yep, indeed
 
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