Liberty: Do any mainstream American polictical parties really oppose it?

Murky · May 23, 2013

You frequently hear people, mostly right-wing people, say that are running on a strong freedom or liberty platform. Doesn't that imply then that they think their opponents either are against or don't favor freedom?

Can you name a successful American politician that ran against freedom or liberty?

This subject comes up frequently in campaign rhetoric. Why does it carry any weight if the premise is false?

CivCube · May 23, 2013

Republicans run on scaring and angering their base.

Tahuti · May 23, 2013

CivCube said:
Republicans run on scaring and angering their base.

So do Democrats and pretty much everyone else. It's naive to think that this can easily be reduced to one party, for if that were true, we wouldn't be discussing the USA right now. A badly informed populace does not make informed decisions.

Cutlass · May 23, 2013

Republicans run against liberty in every election. They just have mastered the political rhetoric sufficiently so that they don't actually have to say so in so many words.

Murky · May 23, 2013

Cutlass said:
Republicans run against liberty in every election. They just have mastered the political rhetoric sufficiently so that they don't actually have to say so in so many words.

It's sort of like how a movie villain tries to convince people they are really a good person.

If people are for Freedom, should they have to convince you with rhetoric or shouldn't that just be self-evident by their actions?

DinoDoc · May 23, 2013

Liberty: Do any mainstream American political parties really oppose it?

The Democratic Party and the GOP.

Cutlass · May 23, 2013

Murky said:
It's sort of like how a movie villain tries to convince people they are really a good person.

If people are for Freedom, should they have to convince you with rhetoric or shouldn't that just be self-evident by their actions?

The public doesn't seem to pay a lot of attention to actions.

classical_hero · May 23, 2013

Obamacare and the abortion part are certainly against Religious liberty.

Formaldehyde · May 23, 2013

Murky said:
You frequently hear people, mostly right-wing people, say that are running on a strong freedom or liberty platform. Doesn't that imply then that they think their opponents either are against or don't favor freedom?

Can you name a successful American politician that ran against freedom or liberty?

This subject comes up frequently in campaign rhetoric. Why does it carry any weight if the premise is false?

Yet the Republicans invariably select politicians who are extremely authoritarian with just a few exceptions. There has only been one Republican presidential candidate in recent history who isn't strongly authoritarian, and he continues to be soundly vilified largely on that basis.

But the Democrats are hardly any better. Obama started out in 2008 with a basically neutral authoritarian/libertarian rating. But it is now strongly authoritarian with only a few Democrats really complaining about it. Ironically, so are some members of the far-right who have no problem at all voting for Republicans who are even worse.

classical_hero said:
Obamacare and the abortion part are certainly against Religious liberty.

Is anybody being forced to to have an abortion against their will, or even required to buy health insurance? Instead, abortion remains a free choice. And Obamacare requires companies which refuse to provide healthcare to pay a penalty.

This is a classic example of how the terms continue to be deliberately misused by far-right authoritarians.

downtown · May 23, 2013

Depends how highly you value your "liberty" to do things like go without health insurance.

Murky · May 23, 2013

I think the biggest obstacle to liberty in a capitalist society is the tendency to accumulate debt instead of wealth. How many candidate run on a platform of fixing issues with personal debts?

Formaldehyde · May 23, 2013

downtown said:
Depends how highly you value your "liberty" to do things like go without health insurance.

I really don't mind at all if those who can afford health insurance sign waivers which allow hospitals and other medical personnel to not provide any services whatsoever in case of injury or sickness.

Of course, this "liberty" should in no way extend to anybody else but themselves. They shouldn't have the same right to deny their own children or others of medical coverage merely because they don't understand why everybody should have coverage.

warpus · May 23, 2013

"Liberty" is way too broad of an idea for someone really to oppose or support it.

They might say that they do, but those are just talking points aimed at the electorate.

Kaitzilla · May 23, 2013

Both major US parties:

Did we make the government even bigger these last few years? Why yes we did!

Hopefully freedom and liberty are still intact.

If you feel any of your rights got trampled, please feel free to recall you have no legal recourse against whatever we did to you.

Kaitzilla · May 23, 2013

Here's a cartoon from 65 years ago for everyone who forgot what liberty and freedom means.

[YOUTUBE-OLD]?v=JriEguBharM[/YOUTUBE-OLD]

Murky · May 23, 2013

warpus said:
"Liberty" is way too broad of an idea for someone really to oppose or support it.

They might say that they do, but those are just talking points aimed at the electorate.

Total freedom might be wishful thinking. For that they would need to do a total debt jubilee for all debtors, free all non-violent prisoners, stop all spying and curtail law enforcement to only being out there to help in emergencies, stop violent crimes and fraud. It's just hard to imagine anything like really ever happening short of a government collapse.

Cutlass · May 23, 2013

Kaitzilla said:
Both major US parties:

Government downsized by millions of people in the last several years....

GoodSarmatian · May 23, 2013

That's an exercise in futility because liberty is too subjective a term.
What's more important ? My liberty to keep/spend all of my money or a young man'S liberty to go to college although he couldn't afford the tuition in a privatised education system ?

Kaitzilla · May 23, 2013

Cutlass said:
Government downsized by millions of people in the last several years....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbar...des-long-upward-march-of-government-spending/

This chart has a lot to teach us about what we can expect from the coming fiscal adjustment. For me, the most notable fact about this chart is that the growth of government spending has been remarkably steady. The trend over the last 83 years has been for government spending to rise by 0.24 percent of GDP per year, and the correlation is strong: a linear regression on this trend has an R-squared value of 0.72, meaning that time explains most of the movement in government spending.

Government gets a little bigger every year to me. 0.24% bigger.
Employees are a bad metric.

Ziggy Stardust · May 23, 2013

Liberty is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so uncool.
Liberty is far too often heard
And mostly what I need from you.

Liberty: Do any mainstream American polictical parties really oppose it?

Deity

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The Man Who Wasn't There.

Deity

Deity

The Man Who Wasn't There.

In whom I trust

Both Fair And Balanced

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In pork I trust

Lord Croissant

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Deity

The Man Who Wasn't There.

Jokerfied Western Male

Lord Croissant

Absolutely Sane

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