Espionage - General discussion/unstructured info

headcase said:
Ok, having to prepare before DOWing might actually be better than % strength bonuses. Instead of choosing war, you choose "prepare for war". After 5/10/15/20 turns (depending on game length), the option to go to war becomes available. You can DOW at any time while prepared, and can choose to stop preparing, which diminishes the preparation counter. But if a spy catches your preparing from another civ or third party, that's the downside to simply preparing for everyone all the time.

If you are DOWed upon, then you simply go to war. Might not make sense that the DOWees don't need to prepare, but it could work best this way.
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While it does sound intresting, I don't think that :
A. What you're saying suggest the lack of ability to DoW at any time without preparing.

B. If you don't actually exclude A, then preparing doens't provide anything positive, except negative (possibly getitng caught).
 
The new spy game seems to have some interesting twists making spies more useful. Being able to find what what the AI has planned for you would certainly be useful in preparing a good defense against a sneak attack. Or knowing who you can count on being on your side if they do. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
Wouldnt this work in multiplayer if the spy simply took note of your opponent's building habits?
If they suddenly switch from granaries to swordsman, then maybe the spy could at least report this as potential danger.
Also, perhaps tech stealing will be balanced out by having to expend a high level spy in order to get the tech. Pure speculation of course...:D
 
Ianwill93 said:
Wouldnt this work in multiplayer if the spy simply took note of your opponent's building habits?
If they suddenly switch from granaries to swordsman, then maybe the spy could at least report this as potential danger.
Also, perhaps tech stealing will be balanced out by having to expend a high level spy in order to get the tech. Pure speculation of course...:D
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In Civ 3, stealing technology was very VERY VERY VERY VERY expensive, and often failed.. so I'd presume it's gonna very a lot like that.
 
TheKingOfBigOz said:
In Civ 3, stealing technology was very VERY VERY VERY VERY expensive, and often failed.. so I'd presume it's gonna very a lot like that.
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A better model might be it only gets you a Portion of a tech...(say 15-25%) each time, and isn't as risky.. but still pretty risky.
 
Krikkitone said:
A better model might be it only gets you a Portion of a tech...(say 15-25%) each time, and isn't as risky.. but still pretty risky.
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Yeah, I also like that idea
 
headcase said:
Me too. Maybe a bit more than 15-20%, but less than 100% for sure.
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well
15->must try 7 times to get tech
20->try 5 times
25->try 4 times
 
Louis XXIV said:
Given that Espionage starts in Renaissance, I wonder if Social Policies have been changed at all to reflect this. I could see something in Patronage, Commerce, and the aforementioned Order as possibilities.
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Sun Tzu Art of War talk about spy games 400 years B.C. I just think that espionage can start a little earlier, perhaps not so strong that in Renaissance and Cold War periods.
 
No point in quoting Sun Tzu. I mentioned Renaissance because that's the information we were given. I'm not arguing there wasn't espionage before that point in history. The ancient Assyrians had a very good intelligence network, for example.

This initial information might be incorrect, though. Later information suggests it's the same Civ2/3 style of early espionage being conducted through official embassies with modern covert operations being reserved for later. Although that doesn't mean embassies don't start in the Renaissance and spies come even later.
 
Louis XXIV said:
No point in quoting Sun Tzu. I mentioned Renaissance because that's the information we were given. I'm not arguing there wasn't espionage before that point in history. The ancient Assyrians had a very good intelligence network, for example.

This initial information might be incorrect, though. Later information suggests it's the same Civ2/3 style of early espionage being conducted through official embassies with modern covert operations being reserved for later. Although that doesn't mean embassies don't start in the Renaissance and spies come even later.
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I just mentioned Sun Tzu for explain my point of view, im not trying to say that you are wrong. I read in a forum (perhaps here) that religion will be very import in the beginning and lost his importance with the time. Perhaps they do the same with spy, beginning weak and in the end its a important tool for victory.
 
Actually, I realized we've been conflating things. I don't think it said Espionage has anything to do with the Renaissance. The importance of religion for diplomacy fades at the Renaissance. However, it is replaced with Social Policies. Essentially, which of the three exclusive trees you adopt.

Unless there's a source I'm not finding, I don't think there's a stated starting point for Espionage.
 
Louis XXIV said:
Actually, I realized we've been conflating things. I don't think it said Espionage has anything to do with the Renaissance. The importance of religion for diplomacy fades at the Renaissance. However, it is replaced with Social Policies. Essentially, which of the three exclusive trees you adopt.

Unless there's a source I'm not finding, I don't think there's a stated starting point for Espionage.
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Understood. But i think it will be good for the game if there is a starting point for espionage. In the beginning perhaps the list of thinks you'll be able to do its minimum. By the time pass them open new stuff to do! cheers!
 
Louis XXIV said:
Unless there's a source I'm not finding, I don't think there's a stated starting point for Espionage.
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I'm pretty sure it said somewhere in one of the initial articles that espionage missions became available during the renaissance. Seems odd to me to keep it till that late, but I guess 'strategic' as opposed to tactical espionage is rather recent. Bar a few notable exceptions of course.
 
Well, I checked both gamespot and IGN and neither one says it.
 
Here's another article: http://www.webhallen.com/spel/pc/149528-civilization_v_expansion-gods_and_kings

Enhanced Diplomacy and Espionage: Establish embassies at foreign courts for closer ties (or clandestine operations). As the religions of the world start settling in, and the world moves into the Renaissance, you unlock your first spy (with more to come). Send them out to establish surveillance of foreign cities, steal advanced technologies from your strongest or wisest competitors, or interfere with city-state alliances. All of your actions can have a diplomatic impact if discovered, so always tread carefully.
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