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I'm honestly having a lot of trouble understanding what you're trying to say and why you're saying it. I don't see a single argument in anything you've written, only assertions repeated over and over again.
Honestly,i am afraid that you are misinterpreting others including myself based on your paraphrasing skills which i think is probably the reasons why you are too self-absorbed in your own narrative prison.

I will try to look at your rebuttals and help clarify our dialogoue and answer them tomorrow since it requires a substantial concentration to pry the lock that you somehow en-caged yourself into.

That's a pretty good job at sounding like an 18th century intellectual, but I don't actually have any idea what it means :p. Could you please clarify?
What?:crazyeye: Please tell me first what makes an 18th century intellectual?:p
 
I think it is fair to say that cerrtain Christians have deified Mary - no matter what some may say, she is definitely worshipped in some places - but she is not a member of the Trinity. Actually, the Holy Spirit is often de-emphasized, and the Trinity is really 2 (the Father and the Son), along with Mary.

But again, no 2 groups have the same view of the Godhead.
 
That's good news! How far back do you think the pendulum will swing? And why do you think that India has lagged so far behind with this? Why was there no sexual counter revolution after the Brits left?

The pendulum will swing as far as is good. The good thing I see is that people are not running after liberation for the sake of liberation, but because they see some good in it. So I don't think it will go to atrocious lengths. However, taboos are disappearing.

As I said, the elite of the country took the British rubbish seriously, so the counter-revolution was a long time in coming. Even now, it's not following the pattern of similar things in Western countries. It's a bit weird, but it works, so I'm content.
 
I'm pleased to hear it. As you can no doubt tell, I think sexual liberation is all to the good. I could only appreciate Bollywood films after it occurred to me how to interpret them: every time that, in a western film, you would have a sex scene, in a Bollywood film you have a song and dance number where everyone is inexplicably in Vienna. Then it all makes sense.

That's not how it works, really. The songs and dances are a staple of Bollywood films. When there is any sexual activity, it's obvious, but not explicit shown.
 
Honestly,i am afraid that you are misinterpreting others including myself based on your paraphrasing skills which i think is probably the reasons why you are too self-absorbed in your own narrative prison.

If he's misinterpreting you, you don't fancy that may be because your writing style is as clear as ink? Your posts here could be used to show students how not to write.
 
Pardon me. I've been told by Christians that Mary represents the Holy Spirit or that she is the Holy Spirit. The many denominations of Christianity seem to
view the Trinity differently which furthers the confusion of this outsider looking in. Many place images of her in their homes & cars which reinforces my notion that she is deified by many Christians.

That's very peculiar. Mary is certainly not the Holy Spirit in any sense. I have never heard of any group ever believing that she is. The orthodox view is that Mary was a perfectly ordinary and non-divine human being upon whom the Holy Spirit descended (whatever that means), miraculously giving her the ability to conceive in non-fun fashion. Any Christian telling you that Mary is the Holy Spirit is either incredibly confused or fascinatingly heretical.

Catholics believe a number of other things about Mary, specifically that she remained a virgin all her life; that she even retained "virginity in parturition", meaning that giving birth to Jesus caused her no physical damage; and that instead of dying she ascended bodily to heaven. They also believe that Mary's own birth was miraculous, involving no transmission of original sin (this is the "Immaculate Conception", often wrongly thought to refer to Jesus' conception), that she never sinned at all, and that she can be regarded as "co-redemptrix" with Jesus. However, they would never call her divine or identify her with the Holy Spirit. Mary remains sinless only because the merits of Christ are retroactively applied to her, not because of any divine ability on her part.

I know that many Muslims believe that the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary, but this is wildly wrong. It's amazing that such profound ignorance of other religions can not only survive for centuries but remain vigorous throughout that time.


It just seems to me that some denominations of Christianity are monotheistic & other aren't. For a long time, I thought that saint worship was further proof of Christian polytheism. Then it was explained to me that people are lighting candles for & praying to saints asking them to pray to G-d on their behalf.

The use of images of Mary and other saints doesn't mean she's deified; Christianity has always drawn a sharp distinction between worship and veneration. From a psychological point of view, of course, Catholic saints fulfil much the same role as different gods in a pantheon, but it doesn't follow from that that they are deified. Now many Protestants would regard this sort of thing as basically idolatry and polytheism, but I think that's fairly extreme.

Another good example. Thanks. I've never seen the Jewish or Christian concepts of angels as deviating from monotheism. In both religions, angels seem to be agents of G-d, not deities to be worshiped.

Right - but you can say exactly the same thing of Mary and saints.

That's not how it works, really. The songs and dances are a staple of Bollywood films. When there is any sexual activity, it's obvious, but not explicit shown.

I know - it's just what I tell myself to try to make sense of it all!
 
I've never understood the attraction of Bollywood films, either. The plots are basic & the characters are 2 dimensional. However, the costuming & large dance numbers are impressive.

That's very peculiar. Mary is certainly not the Holy Spirit in any sense. I have never heard of any group ever believing that she is.

They weren't clergy or scholars, just laypeople.

I know that many Muslims believe that the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, the Son, and Mary, but this is wildly wrong. It's amazing that such profound ignorance of other religions can not only survive for centuries but remain vigorous throughout that time.

There are LOTS of religions and different denominations within them. That's allot to study. The study of a single religion can take a lifetime.

The use of images of Mary and other saints doesn't mean she's deified; Christianity has always drawn a sharp distinction between worship and veneration.

Ah. I hadn't though of that. It's hard to notice the difference as an outsider.

Right - but you can say exactly the same thing of Mary and saints.

I've never seen a Christian build a shrine for an angel or pray to one.

I appreciate this conversation. You've pointed out a couple of similarities that I hadn't thought of. I still think that the term, Judeo-Christian is nonsensical. The two religions are just too different, even ethically, for that term to make sense.
 
There are LOTS of religions and different denominations within them. That's allot to study. The study of a single religion can take a lifetime.

That's true. Although knowing who the members of the Christian Trinity are doesn't take a whole lot of study, and given that it's one of the most important doctrines of the religion, you'd think that anyone with the slightest interest would know it. Besides, the supposed deification of Mary has been a focus of one of the traditional anti-Christian arguments used by Muslims, so the onus is really on them to check their facts.

I've never seen a Christian build a shrine for an angel or pray to one.

Ah, but have you never seen a church dedicated to St Michael, for example? Here is Pope Leo XIII's prayer to the archangel, as recommended by John Paul II.

I appreciate this conversation. You've pointed out a couple of similarities that I hadn't thought of. I still think that the term, Judeo-Christian is nonsensical. The two religions are just too different, even ethically, for that term to make sense.

Glad to help. Certainly Judaism and Christianity are different - or are usually different - but still it makes sense to point out the respects in which they are the same. Moreover, the two have sometimes been so close as to be indistinguishable. For example, Ethiopian Christianity has traditionally been extremely Jewish in tone, with Sabbath observance and so on. And modern Messianic Jews aim to be essentially Christian and Jewish at the same time: they believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but otherwise they are Jews, observing the Law and maintaining Jewish culture. Much like Paul himself and most of the very first generation of Christians.
 
Hello Plotinus, excellent thread.

Question:
What is your position on the common belief that all religions share equal moral standards?
 
Hello Plotinus, excellent thread.

Question:
What is your position on the common belief that all religions share equal moral standards?

That depends on what you mean by "equal". If you mean that all religions teach the same system of morality, then that is demonstrably false. If you mean that they teach different standards of morality but they are all equally X, then it depends on what X is. For example, if you mean that religions teach different standards of morality but they are equally true, then that might be true, on the assumption that they are all false.
 
Plotinus said:
That depends on what you mean by "equal". If you mean that all religions teach the same system of morality, then that is demonstrably false. If you mean that they teach different standards of morality but they are all equally X, then it depends on what X is. For example, if you mean that religions teach different standards of morality but they are equally true, then that might be true, on the assumption that they are all false
.
I meant in terms of sameness as you have answered in the former and I agree. Why is this misconception a prevailing belief even among prominent theologians? It seems that religion is commonly preceived as an aggregated source of humanity that presents the same system of morality.
 
Calvinism or Arminianism? Or neither?

What about them, precisely?

.
I meant in terms of sameness as you have answered in the former and I agree. Why is this misconception a prevailing belief even among prominent theologians? It seems that religion is commonly preceived as an aggregated source of humanity that presents the same system of morality.

Certainly it's the sort of thing that people often say, but that's partly because people don't bother to specify precisely what they mean (as you didn't in the original question). I don't think it's a prevailing belief among prominent theologians. In fact I can't think of a single one who would accept it, so I'm rather puzzled by your statement there. Even Hick wouldn't claim that every religion teaches the same moral system, and he's about as pluralist as they come.
 
What about them, precisely?
A couple questions, actually. Sorry, that wasn't clear at all.

In a general way, what is the more historically accepted doctrine? That man must choose to accept God, and God doesn't decide who accepts Him, or that God predetermines who would accept Him, and only those who He has chosen choose Christ? Based on your knowledge of various theologians and the Bible, what do you think is the better argument?

Also, before Calvin and Arminius came around to put forward their specific views, were there competing doctrines on how salvation worked? (Predeterminism versus free will) Or was this not as big of a deal until the time of John Calvin?
 
Certainly it's the sort of thing that people often say, but that's partly because people don't bother to specify precisely what they mean (as you didn't in the original question). I don't think it's a prevailing belief among prominent theologians. In fact I can't think of a single one who would accept it, so I'm rather puzzled by your statement there. Even Hick wouldn't claim that every religion teaches the same moral system, and he's about as pluralist as they come.

Hans Kung. This man is considered one of the leading theologians of the 21st century. He believes in the concept of global ethics, ethical standards derived specifically from the existing major religions and religious traditions.

It is a very hopeful sign for us to discover that despite the profound differences we have in these religions, the ethical standards are basically the same. What you find in the Hebrew Bible, in the Decalogue, the ten commandments, especially the second part, which we have taken over to the New Testament; what you have also in the Koran; you find very similar commandments in the Indian and in the Chinese tradition.
He goes as far as saying that the golden rule exists in all these religions as well.
We find the golden rule in the Chinese traditions 500 years before Christ: Don't do to others what you do not want to have them do to you. We have it in the Jewish tradition 20 years before Christ in the teaching of Rabbi Hillel. It's also important to mention the Muslim tradition, the Hadith. What you do not wish done to yourself, do not do to others is pronounced with the words, " No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." Add to that the few very basic directives you find everywhere in humanity: not to murder, not to steal, not to lie, not to abuse sexuality. This is the concept of a global ethic that I want to explain a little.
His idea that the golden rule exists in all the world's great religions is incredibley naive and I am astonished that a learned scholar like Hans would make such an erroneous claim.
I don't mean ethics in the sense of a system. We do not need a specific ethical system, neither that of Aristotle, or Thomas Aquinas, or Immanuel Kant, or a new one. We do need an ethic in the sense of an inner moral conviction and a moral attitude. We need some ethical standard like the six we have in the Exhibition on the World's Religions.
I may be wrong, but it seems that Hans is basically saying here that humanity dosen't need to heed or follow the ethical standards prescribed by the great philosophers and thelogians of the past or present, but rather humanity needs to go back to their respective 'grass-roots' religious traditions precribed by their respective religious doctrines which all share a common or universal moral standard. Nevertheless it is clear that Hans believes that all the worlds great religions present the same moral standrads.
 
Looking at his concept of [wiki]global ethic[/wiki], I'd say that I would dispute it.

1. Commitment to a culture of non-violence and respect for life

2. Commitment to a culture of solidarity and a just economic order

3. Commitment to a culture of tolerance and a life of truthfulness

4. Commitment to a culture of equal rights and partnership between men and women

3 and 4 in particular. Plenty of religions are absolutely not fundamentally tolerant, and as for equal rights - that's absolutely not how it had been percieved until the modern age. The last one is absolutely not fundamental in any religion - it's always been added on or modified through interpretation, so it's absurd to say that it's a fundamental standard of religion, unless the fundamental standards change over time.

I can quite easily bring up Christian [wiki]Dominionism[/wiki] as an example which violates #3 and #4.

Is it something that all religions should strive for in this modern day? Absolutely. Is it fundamental? Not really, and as a result it inevitably percieves some religious belief systems to be fundamentally incorrect, and thus defeats its purpose.
 
His idea that the golden rule exists in all the world's great religions is incredibley naive and I am astonished that a learned scholar like Hans would make such an erroneous claim.

Why do you think this?
 
If he's misinterpreting you, you don't fancy that may be because your writing style is as clear as ink? Your posts here could be used to show students how not to write.
Well then,one of my favorite fans is disdainful on my writing style.Poor me,i might as well eliminate your membership.:rolleyes:
 
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