Suggestion for next civ to play?

This still means that Broadway is significantly slower than just spawning GMs after reaching a high TPT.

We can agree that concert tour with more GM later is better than using the same GM to theme Broadway. What I'm getting at is there a case where building Broadway will reduce win turn? Remember that it does take time to generate GM if you decide to generate them after a certain threshold tpt, let's say after you reached information era. For best result, you would start spawn them after Internet/NVC but maybe before airport. It takes around 26 turns to spawn the first 3 GM. You get benefit from higher tourism earlier from Broadway, and if you can win the game before the 26 turns, then your calculation for maximum TPT from musician doesn't necessarily apply. So I think the turn time difference will be based on how much roughly how much culture from AI you need to overcome. Let's assume your maximum TpT is 1k (assuming WR, internet, broadcast tower bonus, ignoring OB, diplomats, TR, religion) and 34 from Broadway which is modified by +184% (50%WR, 100% internet, 34% broadcast tower) that gives 96.56 from Broadway wonder itself. We can just round it to approximately 1.1k tpt with Broadway.
For example, for a 70k AI culture leader, you will need 7 GM in both cases. In this case, the tourism over time from Broadway would reduce about 3k tourism needed, but still wouldn't reduce the number of GM needed to influence him. Therefore Broadway is a net loss in this scenario since you'll need longer to generate the 7 GM than if you used them to theme. On average you'll buy 2-3 GM, so that still leaves at least 4 that has to be naturally born and victory depends on how fast you can spawn them.
On the other extreme, for a 20k AI culture leader, but you only needed 2 GM and faith can buy them. In this case the Broadway would actually reduce the amount needed by about 4k. Also in this extreme case you don't need any natural GM.
Somewhere in between, there should be a break even point.
Also if your tpt isn't 1k, but only 500, then the calculation favors Broadway more when it accounts for 20% of your total tourism.

Also regarding Eiffel Tower, Eiffel tower has higher tourism at the time it is build, so it's definitely priority, but usually you can build both if you plan to get Broadway anyway especially if you're used Oxford for Radio.
 
We can agree that concert tour with more GM later is better than using the same GM to theme Broadway. What I'm getting at is there a case where building Broadway will reduce win turn? Remember that it does take time to generate GM if you decide to generate them after a certain threshold tpt, let's say after you reached information era. For best result, you would start spawn them after Internet/NVC but maybe before airport. It takes around 26 turns to spawn the first 3 GM. You get benefit from higher tourism earlier from Broadway, and if you can win the game before the 26 turns, then your calculation for maximum TPT from musician doesn't necessarily apply. So I think the turn time difference will be based on how much roughly how much culture from AI you need to overcome.

It takes less than 20 turns to generate 2 Great Musicians (the 3rd one actually costs as the previous two combined), and with two Concert Tours you leap forward 20 turns (regarding Tourism), and win. So in this case, unless there were two AIs that were equally ahead in front of you (by ~20 turns) you would win faster.

I think there is no point in including CV wins without performing any Concert Tours in the discussion. IMO if you win a CV without performing any Concert Tour, you could have definitely won faster with at least a concert tour. So yes you have earlier tourism from Broadway, but if you are 20-30 turns away from winning, that is worthless.

Let's assume your maximum TpT is 1k (assuming WR, internet, broadcast tower bonus, ignoring OB, diplomats, TR, religion) and 34 from Broadway which is modified by +184% (50%WR, 100% internet, 34% broadcast tower) that gives 96.56 from Broadway wonder itself. We can just round it to approximately 1.1k tpt with Broadway.

I don't know how you got 34 TPT from Broadway before the % modifiers. You have 3 great work slots, that is 2 TPT base yield for each GWoM, another 1 from Hotel, 1 from Airport and 2 from NVC. The theming bonus it 3, but with the Aesthetics finisher that becomes 6. So before applying any % modifier the base is 24 (6*3 + 6), am I missing something? In the initial calculation I did not factor any bonus from ideology or internet so with a +148% modifier it still is ~60 TPT.


For example, for a 70k AI culture leader, you will need 7 GM in both cases. In this case, the tourism over time from Broadway would reduce about 3k tourism needed, but still wouldn't reduce the number of GM needed to influence him. Therefore Broadway is a net loss in this scenario since you'll need longer to generate the 7 GM than if you used them to theme. On average you'll buy 2-3 GM, so that still leaves at least 4 that has to be naturally born and victory depends on how fast you can spawn them.

Yes, in this example the tourism from Broadway is actually wasted, because you still need to burn 7 GMs, and you will end up with way more tourism than you needed. But this is an extreme case.


On the other extreme, for a 20k AI culture leader, but you only needed 2 GM and faith can buy them. In this case the Broadway would actually reduce the amount needed by about 4k. Also in this extreme case you don't need any natural GM.
Somewhere in between, there should be a break even point.

In the second scenario, if you only needed 20k to overcome why not spawn 4 GMs at 500 TPT and win faster? If you get 2 from faith then you just need to time the musicians guild and spawn the 2 GMs when you want them. There is no break even point simply because of this. Even in this extreme, when you will only need a small amount of tourism and the faith bought GMs are all that is needed, you could have timed Musicians Guild better and won faster.

This is why, for me, the CV is the most difficult. You need to time a lot of things, so you can get ahead. By performing a concert tour, you gain more than 10 turns for your win time, because a concert tour also means 10 less turns for the AI to accumulate culture. And this is significantly important once landmarks come into play.

For Broadway to be worth theming, the game would need to be a lot longer, but because as the game progresses AI will still accumulate culture, and it's CPT will increase, you need to also increase your TPT, so in reality the Broadway is not worth it because in a CV you want to win as soon as possible, before the AI will start accumulating huge amounts of culture. So the only time to build Broadway would be when you would actually use that "free" GM to perform a concert tour, but Broadway comes too early for that.

Also if your tpt isn't 1k, but only 500, then the calculation favors Broadway more when it accounts for 20% of your total tourism.


Yes, that is why I chose 500, to further prove that theming Broadway is not worth it for CV.

Also regarding Eiffel Tower, Eiffel tower has higher tourism at the time it is build, so it's definitely priority, but usually you can build both if you plan to get Broadway anyway especially if you're used Oxford for Radio.

This discussion was for a non-CV play, when you just want tourism to counter ideology pressure, and you only need to pick one. If you can have them both, that is better, but personally I'd rather take Eiffel Tower and then focus on the ideology wonder. If you have a lot of faith you could use GEs on them, but if by doing this you lose GSs it's not worth it.
 
A large faith producing religion could be useful too if you consider all the faith differences from GEs so that you can get the necessary tourism producing wonders that are necessary for getting that CV with the concert tours. Rationalism could seem useful here because you would need technologies that get you hotel, airport and the Internet technology so that you could double your tourism. Grand temple could be useful. Following the theming bonus rules will get you more tourism for your late GM purchases.
 
I don't know how you got 34 TPT from Broadway before the % modifiers.
I took it from a game, but I forgot to write down the explanation.
24 of those are from the great works as you've derived above correctly. The remainder comes form the fact that the wonder itself gives 2 culture, and add on top of that +3 culture from world wonder WC proposal. That totals to +5 culture, plus hotels 50%+ airport 50%+ NVC 100% to get +10 tpt.

You conclusion is still correct as the number isn't significant enough. It takes like 100+ turns to even match a GM.
 
If you add the 3 gwom with their proper themes, Broadway could make you a lot more tourism. However, you sometimes have to wait awhile to have the 3 GMs to make the 3 gwoms during that era so that the theming bonus would make you that much more tpt.
 
Update: I won a cultural victory as Ethiopia, on Prince Difficulty. I was building the Broadway wonder when I got my victory screen. As for the importance of Great Musicians, they were importance in terms of generating tourism, but the "culture bomb" of a tour only broke the stalemate between me and Persia in the modern era, when I was essentially a tourism powerhouse. Eiffel Tower had a lot to do with that.

Overall, Ethiopia was a lot of fun, and I may try them again when I am brave enough to go on King difficulty. For now I'm sticking to prince until I feel more confident.

Now, I am waffling between the next civ to play. Thought about trying Ottomans, though their ability is really only effective if I played on Archipelago, which I have yet to do. Also thought about doing Siam for a diplo victory and Poland for a cultural victory.

Thoughts? Or just any other civs people would suggest?
 
A fun civ to play on lower levels is Byzantine and then use their religious advantage to try to win a really early culture victory (by picking religioius buildings and then the reformation belief tourism from religious buildings).

I do not care that much for the Ottomans. If I want to capture ships I prefer to play as the Dutch.

Siam is great to play and very versatile and so is Poland of course.

I always use Poland when I try a new difficulty because they are very strong and I learn more about the difficulty with them (and is not rage quitting) and can then move to play the other civs
 
I've already played Greece (diplo) and France (cul). Both were fun, and I may actually try France again further down the line, heavily modded of course.

Given what people have said, I think I'm going to do Siam next for a diplomatic victory. Poland I'll try when I am brave enough to bump up the difficulty level to King.

Incidentally, what is the best victory to play towards with Poland? Their free Social Policy every era seems well-geared towards a cultural victory.

A fun civ to play on lower levels is Byzantine and then use their religious advantage to try to win a really early culture victory (by picking religioius buildings and then the reformation belief tourism from religious buildings).

It's funny, because when I played Ethiopia that was essentially what I did with my religion. Tailored it to be a tourism powerhouse. I may go to Byzantium once I'm through with Siam.

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll report back when I have something of note.
 
I decided to play around with Byzantium for a little bit on Archipelago, given that they are a seafaring civ. Though I did not complete a game with them, I seem to have trouble with keeping up with other civs. When I meet Rome I find they have higher score (I was 98 or something while Caesar was 144), more developed infrastructure and even a wonder completed.

I feel like it's a wasted opportunity, since I chose Piety as a social policy to exploit their religion ability. Maybe it was too early for me, since I did not even have a religion up yet?

Anyway, feel free to give thoughts. For now, I'm going back to attempting Siam, and this time, staying on a Pangaea map. Archipelago just shakes up my usual strategy too much....:crazyeye:
 
I was about to say poland for cv in a way but not anymore because the extra social policies dont really count as culture for tourism defense does it?
The defense from culture is only from cultural buildings or is it from more social policies? I think it was from cultural buildings only and if not, then im asking to make sure because of the information from tourist screen.
 
Culture in general acts as defense against tourism. Those free social policies coming in handy in later eras, when you have ideology, and can get one that boosts tourism. In general, I see a free policy as a boon in whatever era.

When I feel ready to bump up the difficulty to King, I'll go with Poland. Either them, or back to Ethiopia again. :D
 
I decided to play around with Byzantium for a little bit on Archipelago, given that they are a seafaring civ. Though I did not complete a game with them,

This describes all 4 games I've played as Byzantium. I don't quit because i'm losing, I just for some reason get bored playing Byzantium.

I once had a game where I had Liberty-Piety into 7 cities with Mosques, Pagodas and Religous Sites (I think I also had Cathedrals) because I was pushing faith so much so that I had reformed when only 1 other civ had a religion. I just get bored playing Byzantium for some reason. IDK what it is but I can't get past 150 or so turns.
 
This describes all 4 games I've played as Byzantium. I don't quit because i'm losing, I just for some reason get bored playing Byzantium.

I once had a game where I had Liberty-Piety into 7 cities with Mosques, Pagodas and Religous Sites (I think I also had Cathedrals) because I was pushing faith so much so that I had reformed when only 1 other civ had a religion. I just get bored playing Byzantium for some reason. IDK what it is but I can't get past 150 or so turns.

Well, you certainly got farther than me. I didn't even get to turn 100. It wasn't for lack of interest, but rather just their overall playstyle. I have a problem with how Byzantium basically forces you into the Piety tree (wanted to complete it first before moving on to Liberty). Not that I don't mind the religion aspect, but when you are starting out on the first 50 or so turns, you also need to get your empire going. Takes too long to start out that way.
 
Score is irrelevant in this game. You do not want to fall too far back in technology so you can use the score to figure out where the others are but otherwise it does not matter.
If you start on higher levels you will be behind for the longest time - maybe the whole game and still win.

If you played Byzantine to win a turist victory you should probably not have chosen Archipelago. It would be better to have a chance to scout around to fine culture, faith and growth from ruins.

Since it is as much about culture as it is faith you should open with tradition and have a monument early and try to get going.

I have had fun trying to win pre industrial tourist victories with the Byzantine.
 
Thanks for the tip. Next time I try Byzantium I will stick with Pangaea or continents. Archipelago I feel is kinda meh, and it's only good for civs like the Ottomans (IE heavy emphasis on Naval). I had a feeling I was shooting myself in the foot going for something like Piety...:rolleyes:

For now, I'll stick with Siam for a diplo victory, unless people have objections.
 
A sitting duck piety start could be fun to experiment with. Allow Ai to spread cities near you, keep peaceand provide a better religion. With itinerary preachers and enough ffaith, your byzantium religion will spread.
 
Update:
Now, I am waffling between the next civ to play. Thought about trying Ottomans, though their ability is really only effective if I played on Archipelago, which I have yet to do. Also thought about doing Siam for a diplo victory and Poland for a cultural victory.
The Ottomans aren't a naval-only civ. Both of their UUs are land-based, which means that they do just as well on Pangaea. I don't think much of Sipahi, but Janisaries are truly amazing... they're worth building an entire tech/invasion strategy around.


Incidentally, what is the best victory to play towards with Poland? Their free Social Policy every era seems well-geared towards a cultural victory.
Actually, when BNW came out social policies were no longer associated with cultural victories: you win CV by accumulating tourism, not by accumulating social policies or culture. Consequently, Poland isn't especially geared towards CV. Rather, they excel at pretty much everything. The free social policies can really help Domination by letting you easily dip into Honor or Commerce, (going dual Liberty/Tradition is another good option) Science benefits from the Patronage policy that gives you +science as well as +gold from Commerce, and Diplomacy benefits both from early Patronage policies as well as +gold from Commerce. And of course CV benefits from almost everything... including early Aesthetics policies.
 
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