Is BNW just Sim City??

reddishrecue · Sep 16, 2015

I agree with the profit part. Another thing about that is that firaxis has its own city building series video game thats more similar to sim city. The op couldve mentioned the comparison of sim city with skycrapers instead since theyre so similar in their own city building series.

noto2 · Sep 16, 2015

beetle said:
It does not seem that OP has given CiV much of a try. IMHO, complaining that CiV on King is too easy is like complaining about Tic Tac Toe.

But see, here is the difference: In Civ4, playing with an AI mod like Kmod, the King AI actually pursued objectives and posed a threat. Oh sure, if I was paying attention I could beat it, but it was a challenge.

I think I haven't explained myself clearly.

I know that in Civ5 I could play on deity and lose, and I would lose because the AI gets a massive amount of cheats.

However, I know that some random guy in Australia, who does not get paid to program, made a mod called Kmod for Civ4. In Kmod, the AI was a threat without massive cheats. It was a threat because it was ruthless and cutthroat. It would really maximize its military, for example, in every way possible, and then launch an all-out attack that I could only repel if I was playing my A game and prepared.

I've also played a lot of Galactic Civ and in that game the AI is also a big threat without cheats. It's not a sandbox game. The AI will do things on its own, things that force you to react and adjust.

My complaint is that the stock BNW AI is far too passive. It's like playing a sandbox game. Your retort is that I should play deity, but then you have missed my point. Plenty of other games/mods have created an AI that is not a sandbox, and did so without massive AI cheats.

Maybe you don't care about cheats. I would much rather play against an AI that is a challenge without them, than play against an AI that is only a challenge with them.

Anyhow, I will get around to playing Emperor with Acken's mod eventually.

Myth and Legend · Sep 16, 2015

noto2 said:
But see, here is the difference: In Civ4, playing with an AI mod like Kmod, the King AI actually pursued objectives and posed a threat. Oh sure, if I was paying attention I could beat it, but it was a challenge.

I think I haven't explained myself clearly.

I know that in Civ5 I could play on deity and lose, and I would lose because the AI gets a massive amount of cheats.

However, I know that some random guy in Australia, who does not get paid to program, made a mod called Kmod for Civ4. In Kmod, the AI was a threat without massive cheats. It was a threat because it was ruthless and cutthroat. It would really maximize its military, for example, in every way possible, and then launch an all-out attack that I could only repel if I was playing my A game and prepared.

I've also played a lot of Galactic Civ and in that game the AI is also a big threat without cheats. It's not a sandbox game. The AI will do things on its own, things that force you to react and adjust.

My complaint is that the stock BNW AI is far too passive. It's like playing a sandbox game. Your retort is that I should play deity, but then you have missed my point. Plenty of other games/mods have created an AI that is not a sandbox, and did so without massive AI cheats.

Maybe you don't care about cheats. I would much rather play against an AI that is a challenge without them, than play against an AI that is only a challenge with them.

Anyhow, I will get around to playing Emperor with Acken's mod eventually.

Mate I've had a Sceince game as Cathy on Deity where all I did was turtle in a 3 city tall empire and launch my space boat.

Map and opponents matter greatly. Try to survive past turn 150 on this map:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=552396

beetle · Sep 16, 2015

noto2 said:
In Civ4, playing with an AI mod like Kmod, the King AI actually pursued objectives and posed a threat. Oh sure, if I was paying attention I could beat it, but it was a challenge.

I was very frustrated by III and IV. One difficulty level was much, much too easy but the next level up was much, much too hard. From your description, I might have appreciated Kmod very much. But I don't think you need Kmod for the V experience you are looking for.

Civ II, SMAC, and CiV all offer a smooth transition between difficulty levels. Throughout the game series, difficulty levels have been about giving buffs to AI civs. It just sounds ridiculous to me to characterize that as “cheats”!

I know that in Civ5 I could play on deity and lose, and I would lose because the AI gets a massive amount of cheats.

So don't play Deity. Play at the level you find challenging. Once that level is no longer challenging, up the difficulty level. Rinse, repeat. The game balance is much better designed between levels that what we had with IV, so I don't think there is a need for Kmod. At Emperor, the AIs do pursue VC objectives and very much pose a threat to the player.

Or go ahead an try Acken's mod. Even at King it might be a significantly different and better gaming experience for you. Plus, he needs play testers!

Heathcliff · Sep 20, 2015

The Civ 5 AI is just worse than Civ 4 AI.
If you played Civ 4 on emperor, you definatly need to play civ 5 on immortal to get the same challange.

beetle · Sep 20, 2015

Heathcliff said:
The Civ 5 AI is just worse than Civ 4 AI.

That is not correct.

If you played Civ 4 on emperor, you definatly need to play civ 5 on immortal to get the same challange.

That is true, but it is because the amount of bonuses are different, not because the AI is different. The Civ 4 AI would also struggle with 1UPT.

reddishrecue · Sep 22, 2015

Civ 4 and 5 were similar in a way, however, way different from sim city and skycrapers.

tommytoxen · Sep 22, 2015

the main problem with civ is on the higher difficulties it's not actually any more difficult. the ai isn't any more smarter or employ any more tactics than it does on easy. it just cheats more. and that just gets really old and really boring really fast.

beetle · Sep 22, 2015

tommytoxen said:
the ai isn't any more smarter or employ any more tactics than it does on easy.

We would all like to see that, but it won't be anytime soon.

it just cheats more. and that just gets really old and really boring really fast.

Can you provide a definition for “cheat” that encompasses the AI getting advantages that the player knows about?

on the higher difficulties it's not actually any more difficult

??? The AI getting more advantages == more difficult for the player

Find the level where the AI advantages make for a challenging game for you.
Have fun!

If you are not already playing Deity, I don't understand how you can complain about being bored!

Yes, the way difficulty levels are implemented is simple. Maybe even disappointing. But is it not fair and reasonable? If the ghosts go faster in higher levels of Pac Man -- do you characterize that as cheating?

tommytoxen · Sep 23, 2015

beetle said:
We would all like to see that, but it won't be anytime soon.

Can you provide a definition for cheat that encompasses the AI getting advantages that the player knows about?

??? The AI getting more advantages == more difficult for the player

Find the level where the AI advantages make for a challenging game for you.

Have fun!

If you are not already playing Deity, I don't understand how you can complain about being bored!

Yes, the way difficulty levels are implemented is simple. Maybe even disappointing. But is it not fair and reasonable? If the ghosts go faster in higher levels of Pac Man -- do you characterize that as cheating?

if i suck at a game, so start using aimbot/wallhack, that does not make me any more good or any more harder at the game. it just makes me a cheat.

so when an ai cheats it does not make it any more difficult or any more good, it just means it's cheating more.

learn what the word 'difficult' actually means.

Acken · Sep 23, 2015

tommytoxen said:
that does not make me any more good or any more harder at the game.

It does not make you any more harder ?

claudiupb · Sep 23, 2015

tommytoxen said:
if i suck at a game, so start using aimbot/wallhack, that does not make me any more good or any more harder at the game. it just makes me a cheat.

so when an ai cheats it does not make it any more difficult or any more good, it just means it's cheating more.

learn what the word 'difficult' actually means.

The AI does not cheat, it is given a number of extra bonuses to make it more difficult for the player to win. This is what creates the difficulty. The bonuses are reasonable and are well known, there is no cheating involved. They just follow the rules and the rules create a handicap for the player. The AI does not have a wall hack at deity, it still has fog of war and the same visibility. The AI does not have any special combat bonuses towards you at higher levels, all bonuses are listed when you want to initiate combat, there's nothing hidden. Cheating would involve breaking or abusing the rules, and if anyone is cheating that is the player abusing some incompetence of the AI that is present at all levels (like accepting white peace, the AI not being able to steal workers with scouts and so on).

Yes the AI is stupid, and it could have improvements in the combat area, and some of them are pretty easy to implement (like not jumping into water or having the ability to move and shoot), but the game is 5 years old and the AI was pretty decent at the time. Players are still struggling at Prince difficulty and this means that there is a challenge to the game.

cvbnchjm · Sep 23, 2015

It does sound a bit like you've never been involved in serious attrition warfare with Deity unit spam. Warfare is not always as easy as you say.

terminus467 · Sep 23, 2015

Yeah it's exactly just Sim City. Where am I going to put this goddamn water tower?

EDIT: I do get what you're saying. The harder AI isn't actually harder or smarter in any way. It's silly, yeah. But this is the best way of scaling difficulty. Because if you expected the AI to be scaled by making it a better player, you'd be expecting Firaxis to literally design an AI that was smarter than humans. Humans who learn and get better at things as they do them. So the AI would have to learn and get better at playing against humans. You're just asking for a Butlerian Jihad.

I posit that the OP is Roko's Basilisk. Nobody think about him!

beetle · Sep 23, 2015

tommytoxen said:
so when an ai cheats

Again, please provide a definition for cheat that would cover known advantages given to a computer player. IMHO, you sound silly.

reddishrecue · Sep 23, 2015

Well in a way it could be like sim city since civ 4 is so similar to sc3k and bnw is similar to sim city since bnw doesnt need to be taller while sc3k was usually wider than sim city like civ 4 was.

shaglio · Sep 24, 2015

The AI doesn't cheat. Period. Cheating requires a conscious decision to circumvent rules. The AI carries out the actions that it is programmed to follow. If the AI were to somehow consciously go against the code it is programmed to follow, I for one would be terrified :wow:

(I'm getting a serious case of Deja Vu, like I've made this point half a dozen times already

). All this nonsense about the AI cheating is just paranoid hyperbole.

reddishrecue · Sep 24, 2015

I wouldnt say Ai cheats, i would say Ai is a lot more spoiled and is programmed to spend a lot more resources that it was spoiled in at the highest levels. Another thing, ai doesnt always manage its units well and lets them die by relying on the quantity of its unlimited units and resources.

beetle · Sep 24, 2015

shaglio said:
Cheating requires a conscious decision to circumvent rules. The AI carries out the actions that it is programmed to follow.

I don't agree that the cheating requires a conscious decision. The AI could be programmed to circumvent game rules under specific circumstances. That could be fairly characterized as cheating -- especially if those circumstances are not clearly explained to the player.

Of course, none of that applies to the varied bonuses associated with increasing difficulty levels.

The AI gets to challenge the player about troops near the AI border. This is not an option for the player. Is that cheating?

claudiupb · Sep 24, 2015

beetle said:
I don't agree that the cheating requires a conscious decision. The AI could be programmed to circumvent game rules under specific circumstances. That could be fairly characterized as cheating -- especially if those circumstances are not clearly explained to the player.

I agree. For example in a backgammon game the AI might manipulate the dice results without player knowing (or sometimes it might know in advance the next dice results) and although this is not conscious it is still cheating.

In a civ 5 game for example the AI may use similar methods to cheat the player by knowing in advance RNG results (like what will come if it pops a ruin at this turn, etc), but it doesn't, and even if it did it will do it at all levels so you can't say that at high difficulties the AI starts cheating.

There are of course some small cheats the AI employs, but really they don't break the game. For example an AI will know if a barb camp is cleared and will beeline it's scout straight for it, but you can also do this if you use a civilian unit to "radar" each known barb camp every turn.

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