Does an AI Venice ruin the game?

Heathcliff · Sep 20, 2015

Having Venice as an AI ruins the game.

If you start next to Venice you get so much land it is like playing on a difficulty level lower than normal. If an AI starts next to Venice and he gets twice as much lands as normal, there is a huge risk that that AI will run away and become a huge problem.

Lately I have had to choose my opponents, to not get Venice into the game.
Which I don't like to do, as I like to be surprised.

Should Venice be removed from the game as it is a terrible Civ and much worse than a generic civ without any abilities?

Acken · Sep 20, 2015

No it does not ruin the game.

Sherlock · Sep 20, 2015

If you're going for a diplo victory it's a problem.

AI's that mess with city-states are my least favorites.

consentient · Sep 20, 2015

I very often play games using the Really Advanced Setup mod and take Venice out because I think that they actually DO ruin the game. If I start next to them, then I'm guaranteed a size 10 captured capital with 3-5 wonders in it before T100, and they start too far away from me, there's little I can do to stop them IRREVOCABLY stealing my CS. If there was a 'Grant Independence' option upon capture (with the same effect but slightly different flavour to 'Liberate') then I wouldn't mind. But this dynamic is just horrendously disgusting really.

Callonia · Sep 20, 2015

Doesn't ruin the game. Venice offers a unique challenge to you.

sixty4half · Sep 20, 2015

Heathcliff said:
Should Venice be removed from the game as it is a terrible Civ and much worse than a generic civ without any abilities?

Absolutely, unequivocally no, it should not be removed from the game. You can personally turn the DLC that it is part of off, if it's that big of a concern for you. But no, the civ should not be removed from the game. It's not a terrible civ. It's not much worse than a generic civ without any abilities. It's actually quite fun to play as Venice.

It does make you play differently when Venice is in your game. Having an AI civ do a little bit of running isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless you don't like challenges. They are a pain in the ass when they steal your Mercantile Ally and cause you to lose 12 happiness in one turn. But when they spawn next to you, you get a boost. Like consentient said. By turn 100 you should be getting a free, nicely fleshed out puppet with a couple of free wonders.

They can be a pain in the ass, but not any more than having Shaka next door. What, are we supposed to go in and remove all of the troublesome civs just because we don't like them? No, you roll with the punches and have diverse games that don't feel like you're playing the same map over and over.

reddishrecue · Sep 21, 2015

Ai venice could ruin your world opinion since venice is so easy to wipe out when pursuing domV. You have to wait and be patient to have enrico purchase a city state first and then take the cap. In other things i dont see an issue with venetian ai, sorry.

consentient · Sep 21, 2015

I love having Shaka next door because he's a challenge in a fun way. Venice is the only civ I hate, and the only one I sometimes remove. Most of the time, I don't.

Chum · Sep 21, 2015

Venice doesn't ruin the game any more than Shaka or Alexander does.

Tatran · Sep 21, 2015

I had Venice in my last game and 6 of 10 city-states were converted.
I don't know if it is still possible to win diplomatic with so many city-states gone.

There's no civ that really ruins the game, but some leaders are just more annoying, like Alexander or Pocatello.

HughFran · Sep 21, 2015

Nope, Venice doesn't ruin the game - it's just a different challenge. The whole point of Civ 5 is trying to adapt to the unique attributes of each Civ you are up against

beetle · Sep 21, 2015

Okay “ruin” is too harsh. But Venice in your games means that the game will be less fun. CS losing status means less of a core element of the game. Venice can't make cities, so less of the competition for space. Venice is not an empire builder, they are strictly a parasite. The developers really did not think Venice through. Or maybe they should have made it player only.

It is not a different challenge, except maybe you target them first wherever they spawn, it is a degraded challenge and a degraded game with Venice in the mix. It is quite different than merely being annoying. Alexander, Pocatello, Shaka are all challenging. Their brand of annoying make the game fun. Venice is just disappointing all the way around.

Tatran said:
I had Venice in my last game and 6 of 10 city-states were converted.

So even with Venice doing that “well”: Did he take any cities from any AIs? Did he come close to any VC?

HughFran · Sep 21, 2015

It's all a matter of opinion, I do not consider them a parasite and I do not try to wipe them out as soon as I see them in my game. They present a unique challenge and that is all - no different to the three you mentioned. You might not like Venice but I actually enjoy playing against them

Kriogen · Sep 21, 2015

Heathcliff said:
...
If you start next to Venice you get so much land it is like playing on a difficulty level lower than normal. If an AI starts next to Venice and he gets twice as much lands as normal, there is a huge risk that that AI will run away and become a huge problem.
...

More land: how much land I can settle depends on how good I am at blocking AI, not with 'Venice'. If Venice can't fill the land, any given other civ will do it like yesterday.

AI gets more: AI can steamroll, yes. Has nothing to do with 'Venice'.

Heathcliff said:
...
Should Venice be removed from the game as it is a terrible Civ and much worse than a generic civ without any abilities?

Venice is not weak.

I quess I should explain why I think Venice is not weak, but you also didn't explain why you think Venice is worse then generic civ.

beetle · Sep 21, 2015

HughFran said:
It's all a matter of opinion, I do not consider them a parasite and I do not try to wipe them out as soon as I see them in my game.

Not everyone resents having Venice show up. And not everyone who resents them tries to wipe them out (or bribe their neighbors to do the deed).

That said, as compared to every other civ that adds city to maps, Venice. The characterization of them as a parasite, I would argue, is objectively accurate (even if my phrasing is unnecessary pejorative) and I disagree that it is all a matter of opinion.

HughFran · Sep 21, 2015

beetle said:
and I disagree that it is all a matter of opinion.

How the hell can you disagree that it is all a matter of opinion? What you are essentially saying then is that your opinion that it is not all a matter of opinion is not correct and therefore expressing your opinion - not FACT. Sorry but I am baffled by this. You are essentially saying that you are correct and everybody else is wrong. Sorry but this is a forum, not a dictatorship

beetle · Sep 21, 2015

Heathcliff said:
If an AI starts next to Venice and he [the AI next to Venice] gets twice as much lands as normal

Kriogen said:
If Venice can't fill the land, any given other civ will do it like yesterday.

Yes, that is exactly what OP is complaining about.

Venice is not weak. I quess I should explain why I think Venice is not weak

Yes please. Weak for the AI to play in particular. Have you ever experience them becoming the runaway?

Heathcliff said:
Should Venice be removed from the game as it is a terrible Civ and much worse than a generic civ without any abilities?

They can be interesting to play, and a case can be made that they are worse than a generic civ. So, no, they should not be removed as an option for the player. They should be removed as an option for the AI. As an AI, the UA degrades game play. Which might be okay if they were played well by the AI, but AI Venice cannot win and I am not sure I have had them even last the whole game!

HughFran said:
How the hell can you disagree that it is all a matter of opinion?

That Venice degrades the usual game play is objectively true. Removing CS from the game takes something away from the game. How is that not a fact? Now, some people don't mind that. Some people appreciate the variety. Some people play with CS disabled. But less is less. It is hard to argue that having less sometimes is somehow more. That said, I don't dislike them enough to use Really Advance Setup!

Tatran · Sep 21, 2015

beetle said:
So even with Venice doing that well: Did he take any cities from any AIs? Did he come close to any VC?

Enrico had a poor starting location and lost his third city (razed) in a war.
Later in the game he lost his capital and his second city.
At that point he had 2 cities left, but with the commerce policies he bribed 2 more city-states.

The starting location in civ5 is a huge success or failure factor.
In one game Monty managed to wipe me out very early, because a jungle start doesn't generate enough hammers for production.

Kriogen · Sep 21, 2015

beetle said:
Yes, that is exactly what OP is complaining about.

As I read it, OP doesn't like Venice because nearby AI will snowball (because of empty land).
My response: AI snowballs even if Venice is not in game.

beetle said:
Yes please. Weak for the AI to play in particular. Have you ever experience them becoming the runaway?

They can be interesting to play, and a case can be made that they are worse than a generic civ. So, no, they should not be removed as an option for the player. They should be removed as an option for the AI. As an AI, the UA degrades game play. Which might be okay if they were played well by the AI, but AI Venice cannot win and I am not sure I have had them even last the whole game!

I agree that standard AI could be better. Not a very good generic AI and even worse for specific civs perks.

But removing a civ is not a solution. Modding is.

wayneb64 · Sep 21, 2015

I get really annoyed when Venice or Austria start gobbling up CSs. I really hate seeing them in the game. The longer the game goes on, the more OP they seem to be. CSs are critical to the strategy I normally play and there seems to be little to nothing you can do to stop them, other than completely annihilating them ASAP.

Does an AI Venice ruin the game?

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