Yelü Chucai's surprising ascent

FiveRings,

:lol: ... I was a bit worried that you'd be "not thrilled". I'm not too sure how we progress from here however!

Part of me is thinking that seeing none of the roster has had much experience with a Cultural Victory, then 'now' might be a great opportunity to get that experience! :)

I had hoped that we could whip 30-40 Cavalry with good promotions out of the gate, and go forth and spank Korea, but without siege up against fortified Protective Grenadiers, I'm very wary of 'getting owned' by a rival that's currently way ahead of us on the Power Chart. I can see us possibly doing it with Modern Era units (Tanks, Bombers, Destroyers, etc.) however.

As indicated in #155, I'm not sure which pathway will be most likely to succeed. I'll set out a plan later today as to how we could approach pursuing a Cultural Victory (I'm away from my Civ computer now) and see if it's even workable, especially if we're sticking with Free Religion instead of Pacifism. At 1250AD, I think that the AI is pretty advanced (no wars to slow it down), and will go for Space with a launch as early as maybe 1900AD.
 
Well, with an able leadership, enthusiastic team, or the better part of it, at least, and a lot of luck we might pull it off.

I think there was a definite possibility to risk a cav war with WK based on a fast capture and demolition of his Iron Mine on the continent (iirc, he'd need iron even to upgrade to further grens). Also, the power chart might be misleading a bit: WK has quite a few cities and - as usual - at least double the human garrisons. But it is a risky strategy, indeed, and you have much better understanding of the game, so I don't need additional reasoning to agree. I can try it nevertheless, once we move far away from the current age.
 
I haven't had a look at the save since my sibling was visiting this weekend and I have been away from my PC. I will have a look later and comment...
 
Had a look at the save. GS is due when I click "Enter". What do with him. Are we going to turn up culture slider for culture VC? Looking at the Cultural cities in the VC screen, I am now wondering the wisdom of trying for Culture. It may make the game long and somewhat tedious as we aren't wonderwhoring. I am unsure...

Perhaps try and shoot for election? Shoot for MM and build UN. This is obviously future stuff but I reckon we need to gear towards it. I am also a little concerned about this screen:



So not good on soldiers. Also, it appears that Sal is well liked. What to do if he vassals to someone? WK is not liked by anyone except Asoka so a bribed dogpile may be in order.
 
you can most probably do diplomatic victory, you will probably compete with Wang Kon of Gen Sec and the only danger here is Asoka being +9 friendly with WK and +9 pleased with you

Qin and Peter form very strong block with you, if you could build some more relationship with defensive pact the UN will probably almost guaranteed.

Only problem is focusing on Biology, growing cities and getting MM

I think the game is probably doable with military victory in mind too. I think you still can have edge with cavalry, but Qin is most probably at rifling

One another problem could be if Qin lands UN...now THAT would be serious issue.
 
Let's take Mecca as the third of the 'Legendary' cities, and make some very rough estimates;

3 Religions + 3 Temples + 3 Monasteries + Library + Uni' + Theatre
= 20:culture: with around 30 Turns to build

Commerce wise; 'say optimistically' 7 Towns (2 Towns, 5 Villages - grow to Towns in around 20) + 20:commerce: in :traderoute: (Harbor / Free Market) + 10:commerce: from other tiles
= 90:commerce: x 70%:culture: = 60:culture:

Hermitage + 3 Cathedrals + Free Speech
= +350%:culture: and around 35 Turns to build

Therefore around 80:culture:/turn x 4.5 = 320:culture: per Turn after around 65 Turns (with build times and what-not, it'd get us to around 10,000:culture: in around 65 turns).

There's enough food to run some Artists or better yet build up some more Cottages. The :culture: slider is pretty variable here, assuming that we build 'Wealth' in other cities.

A significant question from here is whether to turn off research, or go down the Mass Media pathway. Broadway, Rock n Roll (800:hammers: each), and Hollywood (1000:hammers:) would be really expensive for Mecca without a Factory and Power Plant, although The Eiffel Tower / Broadcast Towers don't require the same investment (Eiffel in a production city such as Beshbalik). We could consider Mass Media for Diplo' as an alternative / back-up. With all that said ... I 'majorly' question the effort of researching this pathway and then sinking production into these Wonders however, when compared to running a much higher Culture slider and having the option to build 'Culture' in Mecca. We'll be having some 'passive' research through Representation and settled Scientists as an aside.

Some good news is that if Uzbec runs between 5 and 7 Artists (Caste), and goes down a similar pathway with establishing religious buildings (+250% Free Speech and three Cathedrals), it could deliver three Great Artists for Culture Bombs in Mecca and still get to Legendary itself (Culture Bombing four Great Artists for itself needing 33,000 from 245:culture:/Turn {70:culture: x 3.5})

First step if we go down this pathway is to change Civics: Free Speech (+100%:culture:, Towns +2:commerce:), Caste (unlimited Artists in Uzbek) or stay with Slavery for now (whip Missionaries / Monasteries), and Organised Religion - No State Religion (can produce Missionaries without a Monastery) or stick with Free Religion (whip Monasteries in Hindu/Tao/Jewish cities).

We're looking at 160 Turns from here (1955AD), which is 'borderline' in terms of competing with the AI for Space. I think that we could shave maybe 20 or 30 turns off that with a bit of planning (1920s), but taking Mecca from essentially zero Culture to Legendary in 100-120 turns from here looks very unlikely imho given that Uzbek will need to take maybe four Great Artist bombs for itself.

As vranasm suggests, Diplomatic could be on the radar, and I don't think that Domination with modern units is unattainable. We'd go 'neck and neck' with Space.

Right now, my slight preference, if I had any preference, is to aim for putting together a decent modern army (Industrialism & Combustion ... maybe even Fight & Radio?) and go to war with that. As noted above, Cultural is a gamble, while Space and (peaceful) Diplo' are 'unknown'. I still think that despite our good efforts to get Cavalry fairly quickly, that the AI's fast tech' rate has nerfed this advantage and we'd be really struggling to make good progress with Cavalry alone.

Other minor points: (a.) Iron is not required to upgrade eligable units to Grenadiers, and (b.) I am still quite puzzled by this proposed war with Saladin in light of there being no apparent benefit to us ... the prospect that he might drag in a war ally, as unlikely as it is, probably only adds to the curiosity of this move, however our new Cavalry units might be sufficient to fend off 'say' Peter for a few turns if he did indeed get dragged in.
 
I am starting to change my mind about cultural. I think it may be better to set up a SG with a "must win by culture" variant. That said, perhaps trying to get diplo would be interesting. Noting Cam's concerns re the AI getting their mitts on cavs as well, I reckon that if we get enough of them, it may not be the end of the world.

The war with Sal was an idea to simply crush and destroy a civ. That's all...
 
I thought everyone was expecting to crush Sal while preparing for WK. I don't mind a mea culpa, anyway.

My two cents on long-term thinking: if we don't have a variant to win in a certain mode, we have to take the path of fastest win.
 
Ok we won't go cultural. We can even life without annihilating Sal if we're willing to tolerate "pining for the fjords" misery. Looks like we turtle, grow our cities and tech something.

Lack of soldiers is very rarely a probem because the AI tend to have at least half their soldiery tied up in large garrisons and only half in a stack.
 
If you guys want to kill off Saladin completely, please do so. It's just I don't quite see the point and don't know what you intend to do with the city anyway. I just wanted him off the landmass. I suspect that Saladin's very unlikely to be able to get anyone to war with us ... he's got nothing to bribe with, and not a lot of friends.

Certainly my earlier thinking was to bee-line Cavalry and stomp Korea, and before FiveRings's turnset, was pretty confident we could make good progress down that path. Now, with Korea's access to 'Protective' Grenadiers, big city garrisons, and some quite difficult to take city positions (on Hills across rivers) I am quite dubious of our chances of making headway with a (siege-less) Cavalry charge. Personally, I'd wait for Tanks and Destroyers, but again, if you're all much more confident about the prospects of a war sooner than that, then let's take a shot. I just have my doubts.
 
So i have played my set...

Before hitting enter, I whipped a cav and some infrastructure.

and directly after hitting enter, a GE (Ben Franklin) is born. So, dearest teammates, I ask you what to do with this fine gentleman. I was thinking SoL might be nice.

I park him where he was born (Uzbek). Tech is up to 70%, RP due in 3. Our peace treaty with Sal also ends, just as the galleys reach our troops. I also make the following trade:



After hitting enter, Peter called us and made this offer:



Although tempting, I politely decline. a Galley is loaded and we are about to DoW Sal. The little caraval goes close to Sal's island paradise and I peek at his splendid army:



Totally breathtakingly dangerous.

I hit Enter and QSH makes an offer which I decline as well:



Replaceable Parts comes in:



And I select Rifling next. Moving the galley into Sal's borders:



This was a relatively scary move since most cities get insane WW and start shrinking but hopefully this won't take too long. Also I whip some of it away :)

I also make very short work of Sal's "army" and we take his last city and crush his tiny Civ:



Sal is crushed and the WW goes away. I move our forces to the capital and make some worker moves queuing ever more military. With that, I hand over the save :)
 

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Nice that Sal is gone. Also nice that most of our neighbours like us. I'm slightly confused by our current military builds as I'm not sure how cavalry and trebs combine, I'm probably missing something.

I am kind of wondering if we should ease off on the military, get our northern cities growing and maybe look at some infra, maybe even get ready to build Oxford.
 
I’m a bit unsure of the strategy we’re going with here; most notably when we’re going to attack and with what units, but I’ll ‘go with the flow’ and seek views;

Personally, I would champion the building of Oxford University and West Point. We need two Universities still, and I’d opt for Ning-Hsia and Damascus. As for West Point, either Cimmerian or Beshbalik could work.

There could be some resource trades that might get re-worked.

In terms of a ‘developmental’: PPP#1 …

Trade Military Tradition to both Qin and Peter to dogpile on Asoka (if possible).

Karakorum: Whip Trebuchet > Grocer > Oxford Uni’ at first opportunity
Beshbalik: 2-pop whip Cavalry next turn > West Point (pop regrow)
Uzbek: Whip Trebuchet > Grocer (Merchant specialists)
Turfan: Trebuchet > Forge > Barracks > Ger
Cimmerian: Cavalry*
Visigoth: Grocer > Market
Ning Hsia: Trebuchet > University
Basra: I guess that we may as well work the Iron and press on with the Forge
Kufah: Barracks > Ger
Damascus: Trebuchet > Uni
Baghdad: Cavalry (interrupt) > Ger > Cavalry (resume) > Barracks
Mecca: Cavalry > Lighthouse > Bank
Medina: Lighthouse > Barracks > Ger​

In terms of a ‘war preparation’: PPP#2 …

Look to turn Uzbek into a Globe Theatre drafting site.
Civics: Bureaucracy > Nationhood
Trade Military Tradition to both Qin and Peter to dogpile on Asoka (if possible).

Karakorum: Whip Trebuchet > Cavalry* > Oxford Uni’ at first opportunity
Beshbalik: Cavalry > Theatre > West Point > Cavalry (also – Draft during turnset)
Uzbek: Whip Trebuchet> Barracks > Globe Theatre at first opportunity (also – Draft twice during turnset)
Turfan; Trebuchet > Theatre > Forge > Barracks > Ger (also – Draft during turnset)
Cimmerian: Cavalry* (also – Draft twice during turnset)
Visigoth: Grocer (whip) > Barracks (also – Draft during turnset)
Ning Hsia: Trebuchet > Barracks
Basra: Forge
Kufah: Theatre > Barracks
Damascus: Trebuchet > Uni (also – Draft during turnset)
Baghdad: Cavalry (interrupt) > Uni (whip) > Ger > Cavalry (resume) > Barracks (also – Draft during turnset)
Mecca: Cavalry (interrupt) > Theatre > Barracks > Cavalry (resume) > Ger (also – Draft during turnset)
Medina: Barracks > Ger > Cavalry (also – Draft during turnset)​

Please advise what sort of direction you think I should be going (PPP#1, or #2, or ‘other’). Any other relevant comments welcome, especially on the timing of the proposed Korean conflict. I think that we should be a be to take out ‘say’ Wonsan and Namp’o with the Cavalry we have, but I’d be wary of counter-attacks, and pretty sure we don’t have sufficient troops to secure a capitulation.
 
I'm leaning towards plan1. If we're heading towards steel for cannon/rifles and secondary cavalry stack then we need to grow our cities and build some infra, certainly Oxford. A cavalry stack will help if WK decides to beat us up. I'm not sure about dogpiling Asoka but that's probably because I play too nice rather than it being a bad idea per se.
 
I am OK with both plans. I still think we might have a pretty good chance to expand taking away from WK quite a bit of his land, as there might be other AIs willing to join in, but can't make up my mind on what is worse: to run cheek by cheek with WK towards tanks, or get a big Peter on the borders.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll wait for woopdeedoo's verdict, and we'll see where we sit in terms of a team strategy. :)
 
An Asoka dogpile is an interesting notion. I haven't thought of that. It could be worth it but IIRC, offering MT to the AI only gets us crappy tech and gold and no real benefit. I would be careful about those trades. Uzbek is also proving to be a decent enough GP farm. What to do with our GE though? Maybe shoot for Eiffel? The QSH constitution deal seems good to me, self tech Demo and then use the GE to build Eiffel tower?
 
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