Unit promotions

When a new technology is discovered that allows an upgrade in weaponry, any unit should be able to receive an upgrade. For example when gunpowder is discovered, pikemen, crossbowmen, and longswordsman should all be able to upgrade to musketmen. Other unit promotion sequences do not make sense. Players should have the option to upgrade their units as they wish.

Yeah, pikeman to lancer is not good design. You don't build pikemen because you need anti-horse units, you build them because you need some cannon fodder melee units. They should upgrade to musketmen while keeping the anti-horse promotion. The only problem I see is that this would make upgraded pikemen better musketmen than upgraded longswordmen.

HerrDoktor said:

Yeah, pikeman to lancer is not good design. You don't build pikemen because you need anti-horse units, you build them because you need some cannon fodder melee units. They should upgrade to musketmen while keeping the anti-horse promotion. The only problem I see is that this would make upgraded pikemen better musketmen than upgraded longswordmen.

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it's ok. Longswordmen are used to being worse then pikemen so they would manage.

I always thought more flexible upgrading would be a lot better. It not only allows you to use interesting units which upgrade to uninteresting units but also would allow you to adapt your army through era's better.

I would make it a choice mechanic in the sense that it's not just a win but you lose something also.
.e.g. pike can upgrade to lancer as normal but can also upgrade to musket but promotions are cleared and 50% of xp is returned.
This would remove the issue of upgrading to a different type of unit so your promotions are useless and allow you to choose new appropriate promotions but at the cost of 50% of your experience due to retraining.
Maybe even add a increased upgrade gold cost to do so also.

I think a menu of choices, with different cost, might be the right solution. Upgrading "off path" will cost more, and will entail some penalty as described above.

I also thought it never made any sense why my pikeman would turn into lancer, who then somehow turns into an anti-tank gun, wtf?

On a bit of a tangent here, I think Germany's desperately needed new UA could have something to do with promotions. My first civ game was the console version, and Germany on there was also a militaristic civ. On the console version though, their unique ability was that units that had upgraded or been promoted twice would automatically upgrade (for free) to the next unit in the line once the technology was discovered. Anyone think that might be worth looking into for the patch?

Perhaps advanced military buildings (or Pentagon) could reduce the penalties for upgrading units "off path".

the Spear line is the only real wierdness left

Pikes should upgrade to Rifles or Muskets (Pikes not going obolete until rifling)

Knights should upgrade to Lancers (knights would go obsolete at Metallurgy)
Lancers should upgrade to Cavalry (but Lancers should not go obsolete until Dynamite or Railroad... So for a short time you can build both)

(Chariot Archers->Cross bows, Keshiks->Gatling as well)

Pentagon is too late for anything military related - by the time you get the tech and build it, your military game has either been won or lost.

Calvary units were still being used in WWI, so making them obsolete at dynamite or railroad is too early. Maybe at combined arms.

True that quantum42. They even had limited roles in WWII as well.

quantum42 said:

Calvary units were still being used in WWI, so making them obsolete at dynamite or railroad is too early. Maybe at combined arms.

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Not cavalry going obsolete....
Lancers should be obsolete at Dynamite or Railroad
Lancers should upgrade to Cavalry which shouldn't go obsolete until Combustion (like currently)

MarshalN said:

Pentagon is too late for anything military related - by the time you get the tech and build it, your military game has either been won or lost.

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Not to mention that the upgrade cost algorithm is very naïve - it uses the difference of the production costs of earlier unit and upgraded unit to decide how much to charge. This makes some upgrades very expensive, but infantry to mechanized infantry (which is a world of improvement!) costs a whopping 10 gold by default because the units cost the same amount of hammers. Bomber to stealth bomber is ridiculously low as well despite also increasing utility by a bucketful.

You all do realize the relationship between the pike and lancer right? Makes sense to me...even the lancer to anti tank still the same basic unit good against mounted units and tanks....

HerrDoktor said:

Yeah, pikeman to lancer is not good design. You don't build pikemen because you need anti-horse units, you build them because you need some cannon fodder melee units. They should upgrade to musketmen while keeping the anti-horse promotion. The only problem I see is that this would make upgraded pikemen better musketmen than upgraded longswordmen.

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That's a problem with the balancing of the swordsman / longswordsman, not the pikeman. I'd be perfectly happy with pikemen becoming Lancers if the majority of my tank melee stuff were longswordsmen as god intended

Which promotion is the best for each unit type? (i mean ranger/siege tool/melee/naval)

Firaxis has been improving this a lot already. The current version is much better than the first one, where for example crossbowman was a dead end (as far as ranger units are concerned) etc etc etc.
But I agree that it still isn't perfect.
And there still are situations where you kinda lose your promotions, because those promotions with bonuses in flat/rough terrain are different for ranged and melee units and for example siege tower (a unique unit) is melee but upgrades into a trebuchet or something like that (ranged).
And also the pikeman upgrade is a bit weird. Maybe the game could give you a choice?

avrilFan said:

Which promotion is the best for each unit type? (i mean ranger/siege tool/melee/naval)

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For ranged units (all land and usually also most naval) I always start with three levels of rough or flat terrain bonus (mostly rough). Because this unlocks the absolutely amazing +1 range promotion which makes great anti-city units from archers and siege weapons. Then followed by +1 attack per round and then healing every turn even if the unit performed an action.
The increased range for archer units also makes them better when you upgreade to gatling, because 2 range is still better than 1 But belive me, you won't be upgrading your 3 range crossbowman into a 2 range gatling for quite a long time, because 3 range can be better than the added damage.
Melee units start the same (3 levels of the same promotion) and then usually healing every turn and/or multiple attacks per turn. But it's also good to have some medic units, so in this case the 3 initial levels don't apply.

Naval units: I typically use ranged units against land units and cities, so I start with bonus against land units until I get the +1 range and then I go with +1 attack per turn.
And I use melee naval units against naval units, so I give them these promotions.