The Kuriotates

loki1232 said:

1. The idea was that their entire archery line would be centaurs.
2. The problem with having so many different races (i suggested it too and Kael shot me down) is that "The artwork is wasted in any game without the Kuriotates.

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Well if thats the case, the art work for the ljosalfar, luhinurp, belseraphs and the plethera of others that are in this game must also be wasted if you dont play against them.

I just think thats a poor excuse

Psychic_Llamas said:

I just think thats a poor excuse

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Not sure the art team does, though

yeh, sorry guys HEY WHO SAID YOU COULD REST!! GET BACK TO WORK

Kael said:

loki1232 said:

I have an idea about the other races being a big part of the Kuriotates.

Basically there would be around seven other races, and they would all replace various parts of the Kuriotates unit tree.

Races:
Naga-Replace the dark recon units(assassin, shadow, saboteur)
Centaurs-Replace most of the cavalry units(horseman, chariot, war chariot, war elephant. For these use the stats, not the idea of a centaur on an elephant.)
Eaglefolk-Replace the rest of the cavalry units(horse archer, camel archer, knight)
Giant Wurms (the guys from Magic)-Replace the siege weapons. Warious large worms. These guys will have greater normal strength and less bombardment strength than normal siege weapons.
Satyrs-Replace some archer units(longbowman, flurry, marksman)

Merfolk-Replace the combat naval units. This includes water spellcasters. They do not replace naval transport.
Giant Turtles-You guessed it, they replace naval transport ships.(these two races will not work until we have a more complex naval system)

How does this work?
there would be multiple "centaur units". Normal units would not be upgradeable to them and they would not be upgradable to other races. For example, a scout could upgrade to a hunter but not a centaur horseman. Then that hunter could upgrade to a ranger but not a naga assassin.

What do you all think?

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Thats a lot of art resources tied up in one civ. I would rather spread out units like this instead of spending so much of the art teams time on them only to have it wasted in games without the kuriotates in it.

I would love the units, but we need to do more with less.

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It wasn't that I didn't want the units, or I think civ specific units are a waste at all. I was referring to this this recommendation which, although it would be awesome, would take to much of the art teams time.

Instead I would rather give one unit like loki mentioned to the kuriotates, one of them to another civ, etc etc to spread them out. Maybe the naga are a sheaim unit, maybe the satyr are an elven unit or fellowship special unit, maybe the giant worm is a summon.

The ideas are awesome and I would love to see them in the mod, but not all grouped in one civ.

Actually I've been testing, and leaves is by no means the only choice for the Kuriotates.

1. Heriditary rule gives infinite happiness as well.
2. With all you settlements the order is nice for getting free crusaders.

loki1232 said:

2. With all you settlements the order is nice for getting free crusaders.

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OOhhhh... sneaky.

I'm doing tolerably well with runes. I'm an economic and industrial powerhouse, but the unhappiness in my cities (which appear to be topping off at about 15) is rising, and I'm playing on a low level.

Yeh, hey look Kael, im sorry, i was in a funny mood then I do understand what you mean and why, i was just being facetious and sarcastic etc etc. ididnt mean it litterally (thats why i put the '' there).

But never mind, back to the kuriotates. will they be completed in the next patch, and when will that be if they are?

Psychic_Llamas said:

Yeh, hey look Kael, im sorry, i was in a funny mood then I do understand what you mean and why, i was just being facetious and sarcastic etc etc. ididnt mean it litterally (thats why i put the '' there).

But never mind, back to the kuriotates. will they be completed in the next patch, and when will that be if they are?

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0.13 comes out tomorrow and all of this new city stuff is included. They don't have their centaurs yet, but outside of that they are as complete as any civ is (meaning we still come back from time to time and tweak stuff).

Checkout the changelog thread for everything that will be in tomorrows version. The big things are the Kuriotates, SeZereth's new Hippus units (tons of new art), a new tech tree and new heroes (Barnaxus, Govannon and Magnadine).

Not forgetting that in addition to Barnaxus (who now has an absolutely fascinating write-up), we've played around with the Luichurp's other golem units.

awsome! im going to DL now!

EDIT. oops wrong day, i forget theres such a big time differece in america...
ill DL tomorrow.

Playing a bit more with teh Kuriotates i think the Settlements schould provide a minimum production of 1 - because otherwise settlements that are not next to an hill can not get their obelisk built.

The second thing is they should bring in a little gold or Research.
This is because ore initial thesis that they do not cost anything is wrong. Each settlement is rather expensive as it costs:
1 gold for the obelisk
1 gold for a unit to defend it (it usually provides no free untis due to it small pouplation)
some gold in each of the central cities du to number of cities maintainance (ok that part usually is small)
but the biggest impact if from the civic cost as a major factor in the civic cost is the #of cities.

At turn ~400 i pay something like 7 Gold per settlement (+2 Gold for the unit) at prince

So i feel we should at least allow marketplace and elder council (and not cutting gold an reserach to 2)

This way a seetlement could at least provide 1 research, 2 gold and a bit culture. although one will nevertheless not be able to support more than ~ 6 to 8 settlements with the main cities.
My favoured approach would be something like limiting settlements to the inner eight tiles and reducing the mali to -25% food and -50% production, -50% commerce.

Instead of them having a fixed number of cities, how about that they can only make a certain percentage of their settlements into cities (but can always make their first three settlers cities to give them a decent start)?

I have a question on the cultural border gain of the kuriotates:

Have you changed it on purpose or is it some side effect of increasing the fat cross??

If you changed it on purpose i think you missed the 2 squares on each end (the increased fat cross is actually bigger than the border gain you get).

But nevertheless: I suggest to get the border gain back to normal because:

- Most of the times your 3 core cities will reach the 100 cultural gap pretty soon anyway (and can then work all tiles of the fat cross...)

- It will somewhat delay the spreading of the kuriotates that seems to be pretty fast.

- It just looks wierd the way it is now

There is extra code that controls the spreading of the cultural borders of the kuriotates. The reason are not the core cities but the settlements which are there to expand your borders over wide areas of land. With the Obelisk alone its very difficult to get the 1000 or even more culture. For this readon the settlements borders expand faster. But as the culture value is very low, normal cities can snap the tiles easily from kuriotate settlements.
This way you can close the gaps between settlements at reasonable speed.

That the first expansion leaves out the edges is on purpose so that you need that second expansion to work all tiles (and i have noticed usually bonus resources are exactly in those tiles as one wants to include as many of them as possible. So sending an simple disciple is not enought to work all tiles.)

The rather odd looking single tiles are du to the 1.5 times speed of the expansion, as the best approximation to the intermediate circle between the standard civ expansions looks exactly like that.

One thing that I've noticed with the Kuriotates is that happiness is a much more significant for them than it is with other civs.

Because they have so much more area to work, they don't actually end up using as many tiles in their 3 primary cities and I find that I'm typically lagging farther behind in both research/production because I only have 3 cities that are the same size as the 3 largest cities of my opponents.

A 25% happiness (possibly health also) bonus would make a difference towards combatting this disparity.

In the early game (on prince/monarch) this would let them grow 1-2 pop larger without happiness problems.
In the midgame (right about the time religeon starts and luxuries can get hooked up) 2-4 additional pop.
The late game is a mixed bag, but would generally be 2+ depending on trade and how much conquest had happened.

mindlar said:

One thing that I've noticed with the Kuriotates is that happiness is a much more significant for them than it is with other civs.

Because they have so much more area to work, they don't actually end up using as many tiles in their 3 primary cities and I find that I'm typically lagging farther behind in both research/production because I only have 3 cities that are the same size as the 3 largest cities of my opponents.

A 25% happiness (possibly health also) bonus would make a difference towards combatting this disparity.

In the early game (on prince/monarch) this would let them grow 1-2 pop larger without happiness problems.
In the midgame (right about the time religeon starts and luxuries can get hooked up) 2-4 additional pop.
The late game is a mixed bag, but would generally be 2+ depending on trade and how much conquest had happened.

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We are going to be changing a few things about the kuriotates to try to polish them up a bit in the next version. One of the things is that they will be getting 2 new buildings, one early and one in the midgame. The early one is the Tailor and it gives +1 happiness and +2 trade with each of the following resources: Sheep, Dyes and Silk. The 2nd is the Jeweler and it gives the same bonuses for Gold, Gems and Pearls.

That should give +6 more available happiness for the kuriotates. I would also recommend chekcing out the civic choices when playign the kuriotates. The ones layers are accustomed to using may need to be reconsidered for this civ.

loki1232 said:

2. The problem with having so many different races (i suggested it too and Kael shot me down) is that "The artwork is wasted in any game without the Kuriotates.

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It doesn't have to be wasted. If you ever get around to establishing more unique barbarian nations, you can have centaur barbarians, or even elven rebels ("elven barbarian" doesn't sound right). These could represent "minor civs" ala GalCiv.

Another way to reuse the artwork is to revamp the mercenaries so that there are different types of mercenaries: centaur mercenaries, orc mercs, elven mercs, etc. Maybe even the way of hiring mercenaries can be redone, so that they slowly wander around as neutral caravans from city to city, nation to nation, and main civs could send a unit to them to either hire them or kill them (would require a hire/attack/ignore popup though). Would bring more flavor to the game. Okay I'm going off on a tangent here, so I'll leave it at that.

I'll say one thing: God King is insane for Kuriotates. It's appropriate I think, but ohmigod it makes Kwythellar into a total monster city when it gets big.

Here's a way to scale the number of cities: Guarantee the Kuriotates a certain of cities (obviously at least 1), then add a number of additional cities, the number scaling logarithmically the area controlled. Specifically, calculate the # plots the Kuriotates controls, take the square root of it, round down, divide it by x, and add y to it to get the number of cities, where x = growth factor and y = # guaranteed cities. For example, if x = 1/4 and y = 2, then here's a chart of the number cities allowed:

• 1 plot controlled -> 2 cities
• 16 plots controlled -> 3 cities
• 64 plots controlled -> 4 cities
• 144 plots controlled -> 5 cities
• 256 plots controlled -> 6 cities
• ...

If they ever lose enough area so that it can no longer sustain one city, the population of that city should decrement each turn until it reaches 1, at which point it turns into a settlement.