Global Highland Challenge Pitboss

Indiansmoke said:

Well there is no challenge in starting isolated in a 4 city island that has 1 corn and 2 seafood and all other tiles are hills and plains...ask IANDC...

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I agree this situation is bad, and you know you have few chances to win from the beginning. But it is difficult to get rid of such start locations. Tundra or even jungle are not easy to play.

Indiansmoke said:

I have seen this before...remember angry barbs Geromino? We were saying from the beggining that the map (tectonics) was not good for multiplayer...and what happened?...everyone quit when I was running ahead due to better land.

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You remind me an extremely dramatic moment there : you took my capital from the beginning of the game. To me, it helped you a lot, more than the great land. But I'm happy to have contributed to your victory
And I agree with you: if the game is too unbalanced, there is no challenge either! So we'll try to find the best solution to avoid that...

Geronimo20 said:

It seems all available slots are filled. If a position is available (and if the map is not too much of a problem), you're first on the waiting list.

If we can use the "Full of resource" setting, I hope it may limit the "no food" starting points. Massive continents should prevent from having small islands as starting points. But I agree this map is not an easy one... that's why this pitboss is named challenge

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The FullOfResources mapscript lets you play any of the standard maps (GlobalHighlands, Continents, whatever) but with tweaks to things like how much tundra, jungle, ice etc there is, or minimum distance between start locations, and other settings which help to ensure more fair and balanced starts. It seems perfect for MP.

I'll try to post some examples and screenshots when I get home this evening so we can see what kind of results are possible, but my feeling is that it should be possible using this mapscript reliably to generate a map that is still recognizably Global Highlands but with consistently playable starts. (For example, we can configure things like river and lake distribution, plains v. grassland etc which should all help to minimize unplayable starts).

Or if we decide to go with a different map type, the sames things are possible with any of the standard mapscripts. (For example, we could also take a standard continents game and tweak it with more desert / hills and peaks etc to make it more of a challenge - the end results would probably be quite similar).

Cylindrical instead of toroidal wrap might reduce the risk of stupid starts like this (got this the first time I tried generating a map)

I tested the "Full of resources" map script this evening and it seems interesting to reach more balanced settings. A little trouble is that it doesn't manage Global Highland map

As it is important that each player has the same chances from the beginning, I tried to adapt another map, lakes. My objective was to maintain the "Global Highland" theme, as well as trying to limit potential discrepancies between starting locations.

This map seems to offer some advantages:
- no isolated starting point as each territory can be reached by land units or galleys
- islands can be set to a minimum size
- lakes can represent 30% of the map, so that it behaves like ocean (could someone confirm that?)
- seafood can be authorized in lakes
- Hills proportion can be chosen (35% in my case)

Note that all settings don't seem to have a direct effect: I could not suppress all ice tiles and some resources still regroup on the map whereas I specified that should not. But globally, it allows a clear improvement towards equity!

The detailed settings can be found in the attached files. If you want to test and send your comments:
- Unzip the files
- Copy Full_of_Resources.py to your game directory named PublicMaps (for me it is C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\PublicMaps)
- Launch the map script,when creating the game. It will create a directory names "CivilizationIV Full of Resources" in your "Documents\My Games\" directory
- Copy test_lakes.cfg in it and load it through the map script interface
- Test what the map looks like and feel free to give your opinion

Lakes is one of my favourite mapscripts. I like the suggested tweaks as well (more hills, large lakes) which should make for more interesting tactical geography.

You're right about lakes acting like ocean above a certain size (about 20 tiles I think). There is also a slightly lower limit (10 tiles?) above which they become salty... (but you can't build ships). One to watch for...

Glad to see that you are changing map Even though I am not playing

If this is now lakes, then I am definitely in.

Indiansmoke said:

Glad to see that you are changing map Even though I am not playing

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classical_hero said:

If this is now lakes, then I am definitely in.

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Yes, given you would have subscribed with the current map, both of you are in! You found good arguments
I'll just check if the map has be huge with 14 players (much land with lakes map).
I'll post some snapshots in a couple of hours to show you typical maps.

Here are some snapshots, with the following settings:

- 14 players

- large map

- 20% lakes

I reduced the lake percentage to keep more land. Note that even players close to the pole have access to water (and fish!) thanks to the "no ice" option.
Seems fairly good for me even with 14 players. Any comments?

BTW, 5 players still to send their civilization choices...

There seems to a whole lot of seafood, which favours coastal cities.
I expect a lot of sneak attacks from the sea. That can become very chaotic when galleons appear.

I am very tired now so I can't put my thoughts into words clearly, but it seems to me that a bit less seafood would balance things out. Comments welcome (especially supportive ones since I don't have a good case here!)

Yeah right, Lakes ain't no navy map, What happened to global highlands?

In practice, most lakes will behave like ocean (sea food and navy), because of their size.

For a brief history: to reduce "bad starting locations", Munro proposed to use "Full of resource" map script" which effectively reduces discrepancies between players.
But it doesn't work for global highland. I propose then to customize "lakes" map with highland characteristics. Snapshots are attached here above.

I'll wait players to figure out and send their comments.

Looks good to me. I think the seafood looks about right..

So do we choose civs by telling here, or by PM and once we have the known civs, we then give our leader choices.

send a PM with 3 civs to Geronimo... we''ll get to choose leaders in reverse order (first to pick civ picks leader last)

Cheers

RRRaskolnikov said:

send a PM with 3 civs to Geronimo... we''ll get to choose leaders in reverse order (first to pick civ picks leader last)

Cheers

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Abit confused about the pick process...since I am picking leader 13th I assume, maybe it is better that people post here their preference so I know what the 12 people before me picked before I chose?

So player one posts first player 2 second etc?

Indiansmoke said:

So player one posts first player 2 second etc?

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I guess that's up to Geronimo... though I agree that with the current system, the three civs you will PM him might be choosen already...

9 players have sent me a PM and all have got their first choice until now.
But last players can eventually propose more than 3 to be sure. Send me via PM.

I agree you cannot guess what civ has been chosen by other players but that's to avoid "counter choices". I mean choosing agressive civ because that is what most people choose or whatever. That's the part of of surprise there

I already made my choices and I'll be last for civ and leaders (you have to trust me for that )

Indiansmoke said:

Abit confused about the pick process...since I am picking leader 13th I assume, maybe it is better that people post here their preference so I know what the 12 people before me picked before I chose?

So player one posts first player 2 second etc?

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You'll be 13th in the civ choice... but first in the leader choice!

Note there are 34 civs and 52 leaders (if I am not wrong).