Art and Lore

I have some trouble thinking of the Bannor as Racist. The Tale of Saverous shows their main cities as quite diverse ethically, with even a significant population of Doviello. The pedia also shows them welcoming Maros when he chose to abandon Kilmorph to join the order in their crusade against the demons with whom his people had foolishly made a peace treaty.

They are of course quite intolerant of those who won't follow the orders of their official church, but that has nothing to do with race.

Seems to me that Gaius is more using racist themes to make the other 'good' religions seem bad, than espousing racist views for their own sakes.

Yeah, he's obviously racist, but the view of one insane man does not reflect the entire people... Most Germans didn't know (or refused to believe) what was actually happening to the Jews, for example.

MagisterCultuum said:

I have some trouble thinking of the Bannor as Racist. The Tale of Saverous shows their main cities as quite diverse ethically, with even a significant population of Doviello. The pedia also shows them welcoming Maros when he chose to abandon Kilmorph to join the order in their crusade against the demons with whom his people had foolishly made a peace treaty.

They are of course quite intolerant of those who won't follow the orders of their official church, but that has nothing to do with race.

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I fully agree. I had meant to imply somewhere in his little screed that Gaius' racism was one of the many reasons he was kicked out of both the military and the priesthood; his fellow Bannor were completely disgusted by him, and his fanatical views represent a minority view that are looked upon with derision and mockery by mainstream Bannor society. Never got around to fitting that in though; I think I'll edit his lore to amend this. His view becoming mainstream enough to grant him any sort of power would be the final nail in the coffin of anything resembling a benevolent, or even well-intentioned, Bannor society.

EDIT:

Valkrionn said:

Seems to me that Gaius is more using racist themes to make the other 'good' religions seem bad, than espousing racist views for their own sakes.

Yeah, he's obviously racist, but the view of one insane man does not reflect the entire people... Most Germans didn't know (or refused to believe) what was actually happening to the Jews, for example.

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Regarding Gaius' use of racism and wild accusations about foreign religions: they're inextricably linked in his twisted mind. Why are non-Bannor bad? Because they don't follow the Order... or possibly, they don't follow it in the "right" way. Why is not following the Order bad? Because the Bannor founded the Order, and it is therefore inherently superior to all other religions. In short, the Bannor are superior because they follow the Order, and the Order is superior because the Bannor founded it. If that sounds like the circular logic a madman might use... glad you've been paying attention. That thought process of his is another thing I need to make clearer in my next draft.

EDIT 2: And in case you're wondering, the Hiter-esque-ness of him was completely accidental. I sort of took everything about the Bannor that made them great (a firm belief in law and order, a devoted military, and a deeply spiritual people) and made it all really ugly. I was actually trying for more of an right-wing American cult leader feel... I tried to capture the spirit the kind of guys who'd accuse the Democratic party (and probably the Republicans as well) of being "Nazi Communists" [sic], and ended up capturing the Nazis themselves. Whatever works.

Alright, I was busy condensing the various worker UU's to promotions (Only worker UU left will be Mud Golem, and Gretchin as it's not used and I don't feel like messing with it. ), and decided to remove most builds from the D'tesh. They now have a total of 5 improvements they can build:

1. Corrupted Pasture
2. Crypt
3. Pyre
4. Haunted Mine - Same as mine, cannot discover mushrooms
5. Haunted Fort - same as standard fort, just art

Of those, the last three (and the Castle/Citadel) are all new art, from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12141

I'm in need of some decent buttons for the new improvements. If anyone would like to contribute, please do. Otherwise we get the improvement from that screenshot as a button.

Will this change mean no more Dwarfen Worker and so no more Dwarfen Mine?

Yes for the first question, no for the second.

As I've detailed in the Download thread, I've added the ability for promotions to add/remove build orders. So the Khazad-specific worker promotion adds the ability to build Dwarven Mines. The Malakim-specific promotion allows Bedouin Sits. The D'tesh version allows the 5 D'teshi improvements, and blocks all others.

Much better than having multiple UU's, as these promotions are gained automatically by all UNITCOMBAT_WORKER units the civ gains; Any captured workers/slaves will immediately be able to build their new civ's Improvements.

Ahh so this means Tolerant civs cant build the specialiced Workers any more.

Yes, that's one side effect. I'm okay with it though, honestly.

Valkrionn said:

Spoiler Pyre :

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Food: +1 (with Arcane Lore)
Production: +1 (with Arcane Lore)

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Did you break the civipedia?

No? That's how the Pyre has always worked for the D'tesh. Their improvements are boosted at Necromancy and Arcane Lore.

Valkrionn said:

No? That's how the Pyre has always worked for the D'tesh. Their improvements are boosted at Necromancy and Arcane Lore.

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Food =/= Hammer
Production =/= Gold Coin

Is I think what he was getting at.

Oh wow, hadn't noticed that. Will look into what's causing it.

Alright, fixed the bug. Assumed it was in the DLL, but it was actually caused by reordering the Civ4YieldInfos file (I blame Jhoniten! ). No need to post new screenshots, though.

Also, what do you think about the last pic I posted KillerClowns?
http://leventep.deviantart.com/art/Priest-sermon-81100932

Edit: Or this one Opera found. http://zephyri.cgsociety.org/gallery/634557/

Edit2: Back to the D'teshi improvements... Mine will be called "Catacombs" and the Forts will be "Mausoleum". Thinking 'Lesser Mausoleum', 'Mausoleum', and then either 'Greater Mausoleum' or 'Dark Mausoleum', not sure.

Valkrionn said:

...Edit: Or this one Opera found. http://zephyri.cgsociety.org/gallery/634557/...

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That. I like. Many thanks to Opera; how does she do it? It doesn't match my original envisioning, but it definitely works as a charismatic cult leader any way you cut it.

Yeah, didn't really match what I saw (I see the Bannor as militaristic; American military discourages tattoos in places that won't be covered up by the uniform. Facial tattoos are big no-nos), but it works.

I'll use it.

Valkrionn said:

Much better than having multiple UU's, as these promotions are gained automatically by all UNITCOMBAT_WORKER units the civ gains; Any captured workers/slaves will immediately be able to build their new civ's Improvements.

Click to expand...

But do they allow unique graphics?

Valkrionn said:

I'm in need of some decent buttons for the new improvements. If anyone would like to contribute, please do. Otherwise we get the improvement from that screenshot as a button.

Click to expand...

Can me link me to any quide on making buttons, or provide a .psd template?

VSPavlov said:

But do they allow unique graphics?

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Easily, yes. The unique graphics will be transferred over to the civ, same way other art replacements are done.

VSPavlov said:

Can me link me to any quide on making buttons, or provide a .psd template?

Click to expand...

This should cover both.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268684

One alternative, includes GIMP, Photoshot and Paint.net :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201747

Please, check on this one.
I can replace some pics, if you don't like them.

Those work great! I only have one request: We need three fort buttons, the Fort, Castle, and Citadel. The folder only contains Fort and Citadel... Any chance you could make the Castle?