The Deity Challenge Line-up #22 - Brazil, King of the Jungle

I don't really like sending to AIs with tradition. If I play with few cities might as well make them big.
I feel like that is part of the reason why Morocco is not a top-tier civ on Deity. People playing 4-city Tradition and growing goes against early caravans from Morocco, and early game is the only time these caravans make a big difference. Sure, the AI's might send some to you, but that is luck-dependent.
 
Yes. Although even with trade routes Morrocco wouldn't reach the top tier of the like of Poland either :p

It's actually one of the reason why I dislike Liberty a lot on low difficulties. The advantage of tradition is the kickstart it gives in the first 100turns while Liberty takes a lot of time to catch up. Meanwhile you're supposed to catch up with trade routes, spies and RAs. But below Deity these are all nerfed. That's why I kind of find the "Liberty doesn't work on deity" thread kind of funny because this is the place where it works best actually. Doesn't really feel you can truly catch up though but I feel this is where you'll get your better games our of Liberty. (warmongering aside)
 
It's hard to separate the two, if you're not warmongering it's not really a great idea to go Liberty unless you happen to have an isolated start with mediocre land. That 2nd Settler Deity AIs get just trashes the idea of going wide. You can make it "work", but you can make a lot of not so good ideas "work". And below Immortal I don't know that it matters, you don't have a ton of catching up to do at that point. I do wish Deity had different bonuses that stretched through the game rather than frontloading them with that second Settler.

I mean there are exceptions(Aztecs, Poland, pre-BNW France aka the good one) but they're few and far between.
 
That's why I kind of find the "Liberty doesn't work on deity" thread kind of funny because this is the place where it works best actually. Doesn't really feel you can truly catch up though but I feel this is where you'll get your better games our of Liberty. (warmongering aside)
Well, I think the point is that on standard map you can't really expand too much with Liberty, while Tradition is hands-down the best tree for deity... or, rather, the easiest to do well with. It is easier to go Liberty below deity because you can expand faster than the AI's.
 
Well, I think the point is that on standard map you can't really expand too much with Liberty, while Tradition is hands-down the best tree for deity... or, rather, the easiest to do well with. It is easier to go Liberty below deity because you can expand faster than the AI's.

You also have an easier time dealing with happiness (or the lack of it) on difficulties below deity as well.

Spoiler :

On-Hit-Attack-Speed Maokai with Nashors Tooth + Wit's End + Zehyr + Statikk Shiv is more amusing IMO :lol:
 
Yes. Although even with trade routes Morrocco wouldn't reach the top tier of the like of Poland either :p

It's actually one of the reason why I dislike Liberty a lot on low difficulties. The advantage of tradition is the kickstart it gives in the first 100turns while Liberty takes a lot of time to catch up. Meanwhile you're supposed to catch up with trade routes, spies and RAs. But below Deity these are all nerfed. That's why I kind of find the "Liberty doesn't work on deity" thread kind of funny because this is the place where it works best actually. Doesn't really feel you can truly catch up though but I feel this is where you'll get your better games our of Liberty. (warmongering aside)

How does liberty work better? Im sorry but Im not understanding because un my personal experience Ive failed liberty many times and was able to get tradition to work all the way up to the inmortal difficulty. I tried liberty before and failed but Ive seen others make it work.
 
I would assume it works because Liberty play makes you have more smaller cities that do not need to grow that fast so you practically send ALL of your trade routes away for gold and beakers. That can free up some space to get some units out and kick a neighbor
 
Alright finished at T221 with a culture victory

I watched your video and noticed that you planted zero academies, and only made 3 great works of writing, using the others for treatises. A few questions:

1) Do you think planting academies is always bad, or do you think that planting one can occasionally be good? I ask because I am in the bad habit of planting 2-3 academies, but I can see from your video that for cultural victory, hitting the Internet/Radar as quickly as possible is essential to avoid having to overcome 50k in AI culture, so as many GS as possible should be bulbed. (I should probably just learn to save my GS, even though I love making academies.)

2) How many great works of art and writing do you recommend making? You made 3 works of writing and at least 3 of art in this game. In the video you got 6 Tradition, 6 Aesthetics, 6 Freedom, and 6 Rationalism, which required you to bulb a couple Great Writers. In the video you have 7 artifacts/art in the Hermitage/museums, many brazilwood camps, and 3 writings in the Oxford/Ampitheatre as well as 3 art in the Uffizi for your tourism sources. If you were not Brazil, would you need more great art/great writings?

3) In this game, if you got the Globe Theatre, would you have made another work of writing to theme it, or do you think the social policies are more important?
 
1) One is okay but I wouldn't bulb scientific theory in that case. It also is a function of game length. Longer games can probably go with 2 I guess. You probably should run the maths with your typical game length, mine is aimed for a victory between 220-250. I'd be very surprised if someone shows me it's worth it to plant more than 2 (or even 2). The rule I've seen to plant before ST is a myth of these forums without any proper maths to back it up. The napkin stuff I did a while ago showed that the first academy comes even with a late game bulb so I seriously doubt it for the next guy.
2) 2 at minimum for Oxford, 3 if you get Global theater (+ the free one). No need for more writing, but in another game I'd probably would have acquired more artefacts by proposing world fair second rather than first... But I didn't feel I had any strong option for the first proposal, I would have picked culture for wonder if I had a lot of them.
I always bulb at least 1 great writer for a CV. Often 2.
3)As said in 2, yes.
 
I watched your video and noticed that you planted zero academies, and only made 3 great works of writing, using the others for treatises. A few questions:

1) Do you think planting academies is always bad, or do you think that planting one can occasionally be good? I ask because I am in the bad habit of planting 2-3 academies, but I can see from your video that for cultural victory, hitting the Internet/Radar as quickly as possible is essential to avoid having to overcome 50k in AI culture, so as many GS as possible should be bulbed. (I should probably just learn to save my GS, even though I love making academies.)

2) How many great works of art and writing do you recommend making? You made 3 works of writing and at least 3 of art in this game. In the video you got 6 Tradition, 6 Aesthetics, 6 Freedom, and 6 Rationalism, which required you to bulb a couple Great Writers. In the video you have 7 artifacts/art in the Hermitage/museums, many brazilwood camps, and 3 writings in the Oxford/Ampitheatre as well as 3 art in the Uffizi for your tourism sources. If you were not Brazil, would you need more great art/great writings?

3) In this game, if you got the Globe Theatre, would you have made another work of writing to theme it, or do you think the social policies are more important?


1. Logic would say that you should plant your first GS to try and catch up and build the midgame culture wonders. Though with Brazil, you kind of don't need to, see 2.

2. I had 2 in Sistine, 3 in Hermitage, 2 in a Museum and one more odd artifact that really couldn't do anything because I had nothing to pair it with. I also had a pair in Oxford and I THINK 2 more in Amphis, because I popped a few writers really late when my culture was four digits (late WF) and I didn't need to bulb for any more SP. And I have to say that was definitely a low number and the Carnival made all of that JUST alright. If you do get NVC and Internet super early, then it might be enough, but super early means pre 230 so don't hold your breath (I bulbed Internet around 240-something). You could do with AT LEAST one more museum pairing to be on the safe side. However on this particular map, don't sweat if you don't make it, because there's A LOT of landmarks you can work and even more jungles for Brazilwoods

3. Absolutely. My plan in this one was to go Pisa, use GE for Globe and then hard build Sistine, a combo that I pretty much always go for if available. If I did it, I estimate I would have finished in the 240-250 range. I think I did this combo in the China DCL but that one was ultimately delayed due to minor hostilities (no OB) and embargoes (no trades)
 
However on this particular map, don't sweat if you don't make it, because there's A LOT of landmarks you can work and even more jungles for Brazilwoods
Landmarks are randomly generated AFAIK so not everyone will have the same number of Landmarks. I had 3 IIRC wich is OK but not a lot. OTOH Carnival + Brazilwood camps + Sacred Path made up for total lack of great works for me, i had only 1 for all game :crazyeye: (all artists were used to keep the carnival on forever)
 
yeah once I filled up the Hermitage I just kept partying. At one point I finished Liberty (thanks WF) and had to pick between Artist to keep the party going, or Musician for an instabomb and hopefully game over. At that point, I calculated I would come up just short either way because I would need ~5 more turns of partying and/or one more concert. I picked musician and ended it on the same turn the party was over, talk about timing :D
 
Spoiler :

On-Hit-Attack-Speed Maokai with Nashors Tooth + Wit's End + Zehyr + Statikk Shiv is more amusing IMO :lol:
I would actually never do ad carry Maokai because it doesn't scale at all, and you will lose any serious game (unless your opponents are garbage).

Though I haven't played LoL in a while. Just this civ and some DotA where you can actually build any item on any hero.
 
171 science on t102. :mischief: I watched Acken's game, and he built the Oracle well into the 100's for a rationalism policy. In my game, the Oracle was gone by t82, so I got really mad... until I realized I was getting Education on t94. Huh? The world is super friendly and cuddly, so everyone is sending caravans to me. t94 Education, rush-bought 3 universities and slingshot into t102 Acoustics, used writer to open Rationalism. I would have purchased 4 universities right at once, but I had to buy some land around because, as you can see, our Liberty neighbors are trying hard to expand. Wu already has 9 cities and is becoming a nuisance. She also has an army. :eek: (holy moly, packing 182 science on t104)
 

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Interesting how games play out for people. I saw Acken build the Oracle and Porcelain Tower in his game, but those weren't even in option in mine. And due to peaceful early game, most AI's expanded and ran away like crazy. Thankfully, I am Brazil, and I was able to beat even 50,000 culture from Alex. I would have probably won faster if I didn't take an extra policy before picking Media Culture and allied a religious CS for extra faith to buy an extra musician (got only 1). Also, I got almost no digs because I went straight to Radio and built Eiffel Tower instead of archaeologists. Alex had enough votes to win world leader, by the way.

256 science on t120, but then I slowed down considerably because I was just clicking next turning and not paying attention. China expanded too much and pissed everyone off, and then the AI's were just fighting each other, while I was building Brazilwood camps in my little corner. CV on t256.
 

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By the recommendation of Acken I started this and the first stint got me to T113.

Spoiler :

Deliciously unattractive start but luckily my warrior found a river & even a lux so I settled on T6 by the river. Too bad my warrior didn't have conviction to go over the hills and possibly far away so I only found the true salt cluster a bit later - given the choice I'd have spent even 2 more turns to settle on much better spot. Luckily there was Chinese labour available for free from T10. First ruin gave culture & 2nd a pop so thing weren't that bad. 3rd ruin gave Pottery a turn before researching it so it was mostly wasted effort.
T20 Earth Mother pantheon without shrine, Liberty opening so nothing new under the sun. Next 3 cities are a bit hammer poor locations but it couldn't be helped and as I was having a physical argument with Wu and Pocahontas didn't like my settling plan I didn't really want to hug Alex with a city so I sticked with just 4 and since I couldn't afford enough patrolling archers barbs were actually a bit of a problem.

First caravan to Poca and few turns later I got a DoF offer. T62 4th religion and soon afterwards Alex wiped Harun off the map while having a religion of his own, few wonders & quite a few CSs. I also befriended with Maria duo but declined Pacha's proposal as he was having some border disagreement with Alex.

T71 Oracle which finished Liberty so an Academy inc. The Chinese war wasn't going anywhere so I bought OB from Poca & started sieging Shanghai instead - almost equally crappy surroundings but at least I could heal up much better. T87 CS so the meat shield aspect got slightly better - very slightly. The city fell T101 and I sold it to Poca for 17gpt. Units ran home for Xbow upgrades on T105 & then back to Beijing.
T113 Education and Beijing is few turns short of falling but I'm not sure whether I want it or not there being only 2 Chinese cities I'd take a hefty diplo penalty and I'd rather keep trading partners than a city without much of anything.

The plan was to go after Alex after this but he has only taken one Incan city so he isn't widely enough hated nor does anyone want to DoW him and with nearly all CSs I'll soon ran into serious happiness problems especially if I'll take Beijing.

Last in pretty much everything but land but at least the cities are reasonably sized. It doesn't take a great prophet to see that this is turning into Dom game the main question being should I take Alex or The Rest next. Alex is hiding behind GW which doesn't make life any easier.
 
The Brazil map has more challenge post T-100 than India, I think. Once you've survived the neighbours on India it's easy, whereas the Brazil map has an unpredictable global situation.
 
Aah, well - no wonder this didn't seem too hard apart from the starting location as...

Spoiler :

...I was expecting Shaka to pop by on every turn much longer than it took me find where rest of pack are and when I found all 7 I first assumed that there's the 9th one still lurking somewhere.

I'm just booted after a crash on T156 & I think I call it a day.

Since last I decided not to take Beijing and the decidion was easily backed up by the arrival on Chukos - I settled for pot shots to get range and/or logistics before tackling Alex. I also bribed Maria T against Poca, Alex against Maria & Poca against Wu as this bridge club was totally unable to declare by themselves.

Took Beijing T134, made white peace and got denounced all but Alex & Maria T. First of the 2 RAs gave me massive 4 turns worth of beakers, Alex went industrial T139 and is 5 techs ahead of the rest of pack. I stole, barely, astronomy from Portugal as she was unusually lazy teching - I should've put 007 in Athens from the beginning.

T151 paid Alex to renegotiate the borders between him & Pacha & DoWed him on next turn - too bad this resulted him cancelling the paper only war with Maria T. I spent 1500G to ally just 2 of Alex's as I didn't want war front on every direction - I'd love to spent that money on artie upgrades as well but one can't have everything.
With one bulb available I'll get Dynamite a bit late around T165 but I have 4 GG waiting bomb Athens' surroundings which should help and after that if I can keep the city I'm not expecting too much problems. Happiness might become an issue if there's coal either.

 
Dom T232 after royally screwing things up while being equally sloppy & disregarding quite a few game mechanics. Part of the reason for this was to make some sort of comparison between this & Isabella's DCL #20 it being much easier though smaller main continent was part of that.

Pics included.

Spoiler :

After attacking Alex his border city's defense went up from 20 to 56 & Athens' from 60 to 85 which was a bit of a problem itself but after taking the 1st one my happiness dropped to -5 to -10 which was a prologue to a disaster. GW didn't hamper me much after palnting 3 GGs but producing arties under severe unhappiness I had to take Athens mainly with Xbows. Athens fell T175 without single even moderately useful building and even the 3 wonders were useless - FP was hiding somewhere else and stonehenge in Mecca. One thing for sure after the capture - I needed a plan F as all prior to that were effing useless by now. Happiness dropped to -25 and rebels were quite succesfully pillaging my lands which didn't help with my hammerfree production.

Recalled Harun T185 to have something working for me and Sparta with FP which helped a bit. I didn't build PSchools as I earlier expected the to end around T200, likely before than later but now the timeline was delayed especially when I took a closer look at the map.
After killing Alex & taking Mecca Pacha had 3 cities between the capitals and Lisbon was the 4th city after that one of those being Austrian & and I wasn't suppose to use navy. On the other side Moson Kahni looked easy in comparison, only one Austrian city on the way while Vienna was a bit trickier though only one mandatory city in between.

Pachacuti was very pleased with me after liberating his border city and offered DoF on T186 - I'd have been pleased with OB. T190 Oxforded Radio since my sci & GS production was way crappier than usually and chose Order on next for immeadiate happiness boost - didn't get to positive but at least single digit negative.
Poca & white Maria DoWed me on T193 which didn't cause much problems apart from occasionally losing lux from Buenos Aires. T195 Mecca but Alex found a way to the skies as bit of surprise and I even lost an artie and it postponed his death until T202.

Troops on South started slowly marching towards Portugal through Incan land, slowly build 2nd army was heading towards Poca and the pioneer bunch of 4 GGs & several workers were bombing a pathway from Beijing to Salzburg - nice 3 wide lane enough for a road and a mandatory hopping city enabling GWBs to get to Salzburg & later Vienna. I also bribed Maria T to DoW the other one & Pacha.
T207 Honor finished and money troubles were over unlike happiness issues as Austria went Autocracy & others Freedom. T210 I had to DoW Maria T few turns in advance as her city expanded blocking my way to Portugal. Liberated Shanghai but after killing local Poca's troops Wu swarmed the area so I couldn't take Moson K until T224 and made a quick peace after that.
T213 Flight, started building GWBs & bought as much as I could as out of Rio they came with repair but the production halted for a moment as Pacha won some lottery & bought my oily CS.
After getting through Incan lands 3 logistics & range arties can take a city down quickly enough and as expected Maria's white power was rusting in the seas and not much of help in defending the cities. I also took an Austrian city near Cusco, GG bombed twice & built roads on every tile while hammering down Porto & Lisbon.
T231 Took Vienna surprisingly easy, DoWed Pacha but as I couldn't afford to upgrade my gatling it took two rounds to get Cusco so the game ended on T232.

On hindsight I should've taken anything but Alex after China I just didn't expect the massive happiness hit which halted everything for ~50 turns. After getting my happiness back life was simple again.
Teching was a pathetic mess and even created a GE for Eiffel as I couldn't afford hammers for it. Brandenburg was the only other later WW I got.
By the time I killed Alex he was still 5 techs ahead and in later turns Maria T had Plastics which I ignored.

With enough spare time I'd prolly replay this from Education onwards if it'd make any difference. Unlike in the Spain game I more pissed than curious about the activities of the rebels - I can't recall a game where I had more rebellious troublemakers without my blessing for their actions. The cities were slightly larger than on average so I really needed the help of CSs as willing trading partners are hard to come buy and I assume this would've been easier with Tradition but I just can't bother with it.

Full Liberty, left side of Honor, 2 in Rati as I didn't expect the need for filling Honor then all the happiness from Order and Honor filled. No Great Works apart from last turn Musician nor did I bother to check what I got from captured cities, at worst ideological pressure gave me -21 happiness and in general I paid very little attention to the others; only Alex's path of early glory was interesting.











 
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