New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

I'd like to echo TAdF here (although I'm still sticking to what we've come up with) on the Enterprising/Seafaring trait. I didn't want the trait to handle commerce/trade when I envisioned it, in fact I really only wanted it to deal with exploration and sailing. The reason I decided to name it Enterprising is because of the trade benefits, that said; I do think that it needs to be given a bit more (i.e. the trade routes) so it doesn't pigeon-hole you on maps that don't have oceans.
 
However, I must again state I'm -strongly- against the Enterprising thing.
It seems like a pointless overlapping trait. The leaders that would fit it best already have Financial. Just seems kinda like a lame way of making a seafaring trait more economic-related.

The problem is that having a strong economy is absolutely crucial to any type of playstyle and victory. As a result, traits that have good economic benefits tend to be much stronger than those without, especially on higher difficulty levels. A good example are the warmonger traits: Charismatic is the most powerful because of how well the happiness helps build one's economy. Aggressive on the other hand has hardly any economic benefit and thus gets weaker as difficulty level increases or the situation is not appropriate for all out war.

There is nothing at all wrong with having a trait based on seafaring and exploration but it has to have at least some economic benefit to have a chance of being balanced. Trade routes are a really suitable way to do this in my opinion. I can understand though that naming it Enterprising shifts the thematic emphasis significantly, so I have no issue with calling it Seafaring.
 
The problem is that having a strong economy is absolutely crucial to any type of playstyle and victory. As a result, traits that have good economic benefits tend to be much stronger than those without, especially on higher difficulty levels. A good example are the warmonger traits: Charismatic is the most powerful because of how well the happiness helps build one's economy. Aggressive on the other hand has hardly any economic benefit and thus gets weaker as difficulty level increases or the situation is not appropriate for all out war.

There is nothing at all wrong with having a trait based on seafaring and exploration but it has to have at least some economic benefit to have a chance of being balanced. Trade routes are a really suitable way to do this in my opinion. I can understand though that naming it Enterprising shifts the thematic emphasis significantly, so I have no issue with calling it Seafaring.

I absolutely disagree.
A trait doesn't need to have a direct economic benefit in order to be balanced. Look at say Joao. Joao's trait combo allows him to build a strong empire about as fast as say Darius I, who has two economy traits.

It's all about making sure a trait can do enough on its own, and that a trait can also have some sort of possible synergy elsewhere.
In this case, Exp/Imp means you have cheap settlers, workers, and granaries. That, to me, is better than having extra gold coming from my cottages (or my water tiles.)

If it's all about just making Seafaring and other traits balanced, why not actually -balance- them realistically?
If Protective is weak, you don't throw in a "+1 gold from walls" bonus, you throw in another bonus that works well with that Protective already does. In this case, the trait is all about defense. We've got cheap walls, cheap castles, Drill 1 and CD 1 right off the bat. The way to add on to this?
Try any of these:
*Increased chance of thwarting spies
*+10% to city defenses
*Increased GG points for battles within cultural borders

None of those three have direct effects on economy, but adding any one of them would easily make Protective that much better. And? They all fit with the theme.

Sure, I'll agree that, right now, Fin and Org -are- really powerful. However, I don't believe in them being the best traits in the game. I just think that they are (especially in Fin's case) the easiest to use.
If Protective was made better, for example, it'd mean you could focus more on empire management early on rather than building up defense against those pesky barbarians (Hey, that's another possible bonus. No Barbs Allowed... but that'd be kinda lame, since we already have the Great Wall).
More time focusing on early management and expansion rather than defense = stronger empire quicker. Not to mention that, ideally, you wouldn't need as many defensive units, which would save both money -and- hammers.

This is becoming more of a rant than anything so I'll just... shorten it:
Any trait can be made equal to the others without shoving in a directly financial aspect. Hammers saved, time saved, etc. any benefit like that can be equally beneficial.
 
Agreed with many things here, well said TAdF.
Altough Xyth was also right in one thing before: with increased difficulty the traits with direct or even indirect economical benefits are tend to be much better and useful than the other ones

Back to Seafaring: don't forget with Seafaring the main point of adding economic bonuses is not to make it stronger.
The biggest concern was that it would be totally useless on many map types and in most start situations if all the bonuses are only useable with having many coastal cities.
Also, trade routes fits the theme pretty well. I agree that from this aspect it would be even better if that would be only for coastal cities, but again, gameplay-wise it's important to have it in all cities. Not to mention that I'm sure it's much easier to do the coding for it this way...

Btw, I second improving Protective a little bit. The increased chance of thwarting spies sound the best to me, as we are adding an espionage based trait as well. With that Protective could add a little extra defence against Nationalistic leaders as well :)
 
I absolutely disagree.
A trait doesn't need to have a direct economic benefit in order to be balanced. Look at say Joao. Joao's trait combo allows him to build a strong empire about as fast as say Darius I, who has two economy traits.

It's all about making sure a trait can do enough on its own, and that a trait can also have some sort of possible synergy elsewhere.
In this case, Exp/Imp means you have cheap settlers, workers, and granaries. That, to me, is better than having extra gold coming from my cottages (or my water tiles.)

If it's all about just making Seafaring and other traits balanced, why not actually -balance- them realistically?
If Protective is weak, you don't throw in a "+1 gold from walls" bonus, you throw in another bonus that works well with that Protective already does. In this case, the trait is all about defense. We've got cheap walls, cheap castles, Drill 1 and CD 1 right off the bat. The way to add on to this?
Try any of these:
*Increased chance of thwarting spies
*+10% to city defenses
*Increased GG points for battles within cultural borders

None of those three have direct effects on economy, but adding any one of them would easily make Protective that much better. And? They all fit with the theme.

Sure, I'll agree that, right now, Fin and Org -are- really powerful. However, I don't believe in them being the best traits in the game. I just think that they are (especially in Fin's case) the easiest to use.
If Protective was made better, for example, it'd mean you could focus more on empire management early on rather than building up defense against those pesky barbarians (Hey, that's another possible bonus. No Barbs Allowed... but that'd be kinda lame, since we already have the Great Wall).
More time focusing on early management and expansion rather than defense = stronger empire quicker. Not to mention that, ideally, you wouldn't need as many defensive units, which would save both money -and- hammers.

This is becoming more of a rant than anything so I'll just... shorten it:
Any trait can be made equal to the others without shoving in a directly financial aspect. Hammers saved, time saved, etc. any benefit like that can be equally beneficial.

I think you and I have different definitions of 'economy' when it comes to Civ. I am most definitely not talking about just gold. The economy is the productivity of your cities: it's hammers, research, espionage, gold, culture, etc.

Almost every trait has economic benefits, either directly or indirectly:

- Those with happiness and health allow cities to be bigger, thus increasing your cities' output.
- Some make it cheaper or faster to produce things that will increase your cities output
- No anarchy means your cities don't stop being productive

And so on. The traits that don't have any/much economic benefit are the warmonger traits (except Charismatic and to a lesser extent, Imperialist). That's okay though because warfare is another major part of the game. Exploration and sea travel are not though, it can be helpful in some situations but there is no way that it is anywhere near as important as warfare or the economy. That's why Seafaring trait simply has to have at least some benefit in one of these areas, it would be utterly imbalanced for it not to unless you want it to be a niche thing.

As for Financial, it is so good because it is ridiculously versatile. If you want to go all out on research, you can. If you want to go all out on gold or espionage or culture you can. It allows you to play many different ways successfully, something that no other trait comes close to.
 
I think you and I have different definitions of 'economy' when it comes to Civ. I am most definitely not talking about just gold. The economy is the productivity of your cities: it's hammers, research, espionage, gold, culture, etc.

Almost every trait has economic benefits, either directly or indirectly:

- Those with happiness and health allow cities to be bigger, thus increasing your cities' output.
- Some make it cheaper or faster to produce things that will increase your cities output
- No anarchy means your cities don't stop being productive

And so on. The traits that don't have any/much economic benefit are the warmonger traits (except Charismatic and to a lesser extent, Imperialist). That's okay though because warfare is another major part of the game. Exploration and sea travel are not though, it can be helpful in some situations but there is no way that it is anywhere near as important as warfare or the economy. That's why Seafaring trait simply has to have at least some benefit in one of these areas, it would be utterly imbalanced for it not to unless you want it to be a niche thing.

As for Financial, it is so good because it is ridiculously versatile. If you want to go all out on research, you can. If you want to go all out on gold or espionage or culture you can. It allows you to play many different ways successfully, something that no other trait comes close to.

How about this, then.
On top of the +1 movement to naval units and cheaper naval-related buildings:
*All naval units start with Drill 1
*Free Amphibious promotion

That should, at the very least, make it on par (to me, it even sounds better) than Aggressive and Protective.
 
lol
Seriously, what's with you and Drill I? It's not a good idea :p
Noone backed you up with that, yet you came up with it for at least the 8th time :D:D
 
Well you could go for some military benefit instead of a economic one, that could certainly be made viable. I prefer economic myself as I feel it makes much more historical sense, but each to their own. Capo rightly gets the final say :)

I think a good way to consider traits is how they could help achieve one or more of the victory types. So Aggressive is obviously good for Conquest, Creative for Cultural. Others like Organized and Expansive are more versatile and could help with many. Protective is a bit of an oddball that doesn't help you towards victory by itself, rather it theoretically lets you use your other trait without your opponents beating down your gates so much.

A traditional Seafaring trait though doesn't really help towards any victory type. There's no Exploration or Naval Dominance victory. The one benefit I do see for it is the ability to find resources and good city locations a bit quicker than your opponents but then this is very map specific.

However with a trade route bonus you have strong incentive to send your ships out. They can not only seek resources and potential colonies they can seek out the cities of your opponents, knowing that when you find them you'll likely be getting gold, science, culture and/or espionage for your efforts. This reflects history really well I think.

With a military focus you lack as much incentive to seek out new lands but you'll be a bit tougher should you encounter other ships or wish to plan a naval invasion or something. I'm not saying that this is a poor idea but it would make it a trait similar to Protective.
 
lol
Seriously, what's with you and Drill I? It's not a good idea :p
Noone backed you up with that, yet you came up with it for at least the 8th time :D:D

I don't see you offering an explanation as to -why- it's not a good idea.
It's powerful and it makes sense.

I can agree with Xyth, though, that the trait could use a more... multi-purpose bonus.
Could always, instead of a free trade route, find a better bonus towards colonization.

There was the suggested decrease of maintenance fees for cities on different continents. I just don't know how powerful that would really be.
Something along those lines would be great, something that'd aide expansion but still tie into the core theme.
It'd be neat to basically have something like the Portugeese UU in trait form: Get yourself a large colony up quick before the other players.

The only problem with the decreased maintenance is that the powerfulness of it depends largely on your difficulty.
 
How about decreasing the maintaince depending on how far away from the palace the colony/city is. The further away, the less maintaince it is.
 
How about decreasing the maintaince depending on how far away from the palace the colony/city is. The further away, the less maintaince it is.

I do like this, especially if the nomadic trait doesn't make the cut (Not that I'm bashing the nomadic trait, I still love the sound of it.)

It's still very seafaring related, as it ties into expanding across the globe, but it still benefits the player and is relatively versatile.
 
I don't understand the arguments here quite frankly. First we have one guy saying that he thinks Seafaring shouldn't have the extra trade routes but then turns around and says without them the trait wouldn't be good, and then goes on to ask about another economic bonus?

Then another one agrees, and then just suggests military upgrades?

I am confused. What is wrong with this:
  • +1 Movement for naval units
  • Double Production speed of Harbor, Customs House, DryDock
  • Free promotion(s) for Explorer/Scout
  • +1 TR in all cities

Seems fine to me, you guys also must remember that these new traits, in all liklihood, are not going to be spread out as evenly as the others. For instance there won't be an equal number of Seafarers and Organizers, because frankly there isn't an equal number of those types of leaders in the game. So you'll probably only see around ten leaders or so actually be Seafaring, probably less.

Back to the trait, Harbor and Customs house help the economy. The trade routes certainly help the economy, and if you combine the faster ships, and quicker DryDocks will give you a mightier navy to help your empire. I don't see how this is underpowered? We aren't necessarily trying to make an AWESOME trait, this is easily better than protective in my opinion, so to me it qualifies.
 
Just an idea, make a trait named AWSOME and give it to a really AWSOME leader on a really AWSOME civ. This trait should of course be really AWSOME! :D
 
I also think this is the best solution for Seafaring. Or something very similar to this

Btw, did you see, that TAdF made a good suggestion about Protective somewhere among the last 6-8 posts?
Now I did not find that post, just my own reaction, but maybe you should consider this. It's not a very big bonus, and honestly not that important, but a very cool flavour and makes Protective slightly better:

Btw, I second improving Protective a little bit. The increased chance of thwarting spies sound the best to me, as we are adding an espionage based trait as well. With that Protective could add a little extra defence against Nationalistic leaders as well :)
 
Thwarting spies? indeed!
 
Okay, so once more, I'm going to try to spell out the new traits then:

Seafaring/Enterprising
  • +1 Movement for all Naval Units
  • Double production speed of Harbor, Lighthouse, Dry Dock and Customs House
  • +1/2 Promotions for Scouts/Explorers (or free XP, haven't refined this yet)
  • +1 Trade routes in all cities

Nationalistic
  • +1 Happiness +1 Culture per National Wonder
  • +2 Espionage points in each city
  • Double production speed of Jail, Security Bureau, Intelligence Agency, and Mind Control Center
  • Minimal wait times between revolutions

And I think we were going to change some of the other traits so they don't share DP buildings with the new ones. As well as add a Spy-thwarting bonus to Protective, someone said 10% but I think maybe 20% is better.

EDIT: I was planning on adding that well building (the one that gives a fresh water tile outside of your city) to the game as well, so in that case we can give whichever trait had the lighthouse the well now (I can't remember off-hand which one it was).
 
Nomadic is dropped or still under consideration?
 
Nomadic is all but dropped, unless someone can come up with a good reason to add it and some meaningful features I don't know if it will make it.

Nomadic represents a large number of included and planned leaders. Our Mongols, our native americans, our tribalistic factions.
I'm even willing to say we may have more Nomadic leaders than Seafaring.
 
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