Age of discovery

Louis XXIV · Nov 13, 2014

I can't comment generally about contact (I'm unaware of whether the Spanish learned of the Inca from Mesoamerica). I was talking specifically of exchange in flora and fauna, which happens on a more gradual scale anyway (certainly, Mesoamerica could have and did trade with Northeast North America, but having corn adapt to the climate took a considerable amount of time). I could see the same for Quinoa perhaps (although I doubt it) or Potatoes (which do like rocky soil, so that makes sense). But one of the interesting things is that the Maya had wheels (on children's toys) but no beasts of burden. The Inca had beasts of burden but no wheels (and, admittedly, fairly mountainous terrain). Why did the two never interact? In addition, sources of protein like Guinea Pigs would have been really easy to trade without much difficulty.

So an awareness of each other (and probably indirect trade) is one thing, but exchange of flora and fauna is an entirely different thing.

Gucumatz · Nov 17, 2014

In the regards of the eastern US, peoples from Canada all the way to Florida had names in their own languages to call the other tribes of the east coast. Not unlike how Europeans in the ancient-middle age era [Take how Germany has like 20 different names as different European peoples came to interact with the German tribes in their own languages] all had some loose idea of peoples within the continent. I should research to see how far Mesoamerican names for peoples to the South go

Domen · Nov 17, 2014

Yes, among ethnonyms there are endonyms (how members of an ethnic group call themselves) and exonyms (how others call them).

Gucumatz · Nov 17, 2014

Thanks for the vocab Domen, exonym was what I was referring to the above. I wonder how far south exonyms from Mesoamerica go.

Marla_Singer · Nov 17, 2014

Alright, I've looked a bit what was said on the Internet about that. All the sources I've read consider that we have no evidence the Aztecs and the Incas knew each others. The Aztec influence ended at the level of Honduras, and the Inca influence ended at the level of Colombia. Some Aztec legends may apparently describe some distant culture in a way that could recall the Incas but that's rather thin.

However, and that's where things are interesting, I simply looked the Pizarro page on Wikipedia, and we learn there he learnt about the existence of Peru from someone called Pascual de Andagoya. Pascual de Andagoya arrived in Panama in 1519. Later, he went further South on the Colombian Pacific Coast, founding "San Juan" in 1522. It's over there that he learnt about a distant territory called "Birú", or "Pirú". Still citing Wikipedia, he attempted a conquest then (in 1522) but ended in miserable failure.

So here you have the first contact that could easily spread the disease that would kill Huayna Capac in 1527.

If you want to know more about that story, here are some sources:
Pascual de Andagoya (Wikipedia)

An interesting Spanish source that I just Google Translated:

In 1522, the Basque Pascual Andagoya held the position of Inspector General of the Indians of Castilla de Oro. One day, exploring the Gulf of San Miguel, the Indians told him that passing the tip Garachine reigned a powerful and wealthy chief named Biru or Piru. Andagoya decided to move towards the land "had hitherto undiscovered."

After seven days of sailing along the coast found the Baudo River navigable. In some leagues trace it, he found a strength of Indians who attacked fiercely. Finishing the fight Andagoya and his men accepted the surrender of the cacique Biru, who to win the friendship of his captors offered help in exploring further south, in the Choco region (Colombia). Navigating the sea reached the San Juan River delta in which the canoe carrying the Spanish captain who was wounded and ordered return overturned.

Arriving in Panama, Andagoya wrote several reports and letters, where instead of Piru or Biru, claimed to have discovered the lands of "Peru". Historian Miguel Estrada Maticorena discovered the oldest document in which the word appears Peru. Its date July 23, 1523, and referred to as "province of Peru" to Colombian land Andagoya explored last year. Shortly years later, the Spaniards call Peru the Inca Empire.

Source: http://www.amautacunadehistoria.com/2010/05/la-expedicion-de-pascual-de-andagoya.html

Another Spanish speaking source also mentioning Andagoya:
http://www.banrepcultural.org/node/74508 (google translated)

innonimatu · Dec 23, 2014

Cutlass said:
There was no way to sail a ship around the fat part of West Africa in Roman days. That is, with sail and oar, you'll never overcome the prevailing winds and current.

It's possible and it was done prior to the discovery of the western route. Just not the easiest way to navigate that coast during part of the year. And later the main seat route to India still followed the "fat" portion of western Africa before truning west.

Marla_Singer said:
Of course the idea to bypass the Arabs through the Seas could sound good, but since the Roman times, sea trade down the Cape Chaunar (on the Moroccan coast at the level of the Canary islands) has never been possible because of the strong streams in the area preventing a safe return.

And here's where things are getting interesting. The Portuguese indeed had at the time boats to fish cods in the High Seas and come back safely. It is thanks to those boats that they could finally get enough westward from Cape Chaunar to avoid the strong stream and come back in all security to Europe. And this is how sea exploration, the age of discovery, all started.

It's not really necessary to sail much far from the coast to bypass that cape, mind you. Early explorers quickly turned back towards the coast after bypassing it, and proceeded to chart the african coast and seek trade there. Only by the late 15th century did the more westward route (which bypassed western Africa starting a little south of Cape Verde) became the usual one, and that for navigation to India.

Marla_Singer said:
And here goes the unbelievable story of Hernan Cortes and the conquest of Mexico. How dudes coming from a distant medieval Europe could come with only a handful of guys and take control of something as huge as the Aztec Empire is something phenomenal when you really think about it. Of course, we know that this is largely the result of disease, you've talked about it in details (there are other things so but I won't start on that), but it was something that couldn't be forecasted by anyone at the time.

They were also bloody lucky to find empire that were going through political instability ripe for exploitation. The Aztec overextended, the Inca mopping up a civil war...

Marla_Singer · Dec 23, 2014

innonimatu said:
It's not really necessary to sail much far from the coast to bypass that cape, mind you. Early explorers quickly turned back towards the coast after bypassing it, and proceeded to chart the african coast and seek trade there. Only by the late 15th century did the more westward route (which bypassed western Africa starting a little south of Cape Verde) became the usual one, and that for navigation to India.

Yes! I was wrong on this one. Actually, the problem wasn't about streams, it was about winds. It's very easy to move along the Moroccan Coast from North to South, but it's a lot harder to do so from South to North. That's the reason why Romans and Arabs never used that path as a regular sea trade route.

Here is a map that shows the Portuguese trade routes from the 15th century. As you can see, the path to go back to Lisbon from Cape Verde required to sail to the Azores first, because of the winds. Such a sailing in the high seas was impossible at the Roman times.

innonimatu said:
They were also bloody lucky to find empire that were going through political instability ripe for exploitation. The Aztec overextended, the Inca mopping up a civil war...

Yes. Actually the Mexica (The Aztecs from Tenochtitlan) had many ennemies within the Aztec Empire, and the alliances Cortez had with other Aztec tribes have probably been decisive in the story. Cortez could simply not have hold it without allies. That's just impossible to think otherwise. He had no troops, 200 guys that's just nothing. You simply cannot hold such a huge Empire with only 200 men.

Contrary to what I believed younger... Cortez was clearly more a diplomat and a stratege than a soldier.

Domen · Jan 7, 2015

Coming back to the Solutrean hypothesis on immigration of some ancestors of modern Algonquian peoples 15,000 years ago - check this video:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquian_peoples

Link to video.

Algonquian languages:

Age of discovery

Louis XXIV

Le Roi Soleil

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

Domen

Misico dux Vandalorum

Gucumatz

JS, secretly Rod Serling

Marla_Singer

United in diversity

innonimatu

the resident Cassandra

Marla_Singer

United in diversity

Domen

Misico dux Vandalorum

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