i am not very good

Just checking in for a few seconds and I see Andy's post as to why he is falling off the pace.

My proposal will be to continue this discussion period until Wednesday and then play two more rounds before stopping if handyandy has not rejoined the play by then.

One of the major purposes of thsi game down at the warlord level was to let less experienced players play along and gain some basic play tips and skills particularly in the openning game play.

If we continue with this proposal we are currently played up to the 1525bc or turn 60 time point and that is where we are now discussing.

The next two rounds will take us up to time points 70, 80, and 90

and then onward to turns 100, 110, and 120 which will end at 170bc where we will stop if all the less experienced players have dropped out.

Any comments or discussion?

I am a 'less experienced' player, and I'll try not to drop out.

Anyway, here's my minimap showing how I emphasise exploration (I'm sure you've got minimaps like this anyway).
The coloured lines show each warrior's basic path. You can see how I go round the coast a little. Jaxom, did you explore with 2, 3, or 4 warriors? I used 3, and it gives a good result.

Great image James, that really helps to visualize the starategy you were following in exploration.

Here are three table images for the game data for 2190bc, 1790bc, and 1525bc:

Several things you will see in the table images include:

1) In two cases, the data has gaps because we had to average over the missing or miss timed save files.

2) The green highlighted boxes are areas in diplomacy and techs that showed an increase from the prior known positiosn.

3) In the tech areas, I outlined the boxes to indicate the techs that were targeted for research in the save file.

James, I startd with 3 warriors and found one in a hut on the way. Later I added a 5th warrior when I saw an opening to the east.

Cracker, I bought an embassy with Babylon around 1790 if I am not mistaken. However, it is not impossible I wrote it down on the report and forgot to implement my policy

I'll check on my save game when I can and I'll confirm or deny.

So Lee, what you gonna do with all that cash burnin' a hole in your pocket??

I look at the 1525bc table and see that Jaxom got a major point pop from getting to Literature first and also from getting Philosophy out of a hut. Look at the subtotal lines in the 1525bc table and notice the difference betweeh the technology subtotals for my game vs Jaxom's game.

A number of players are going hot and heavy for spearmen and Jaxon is definitely kicking everybodies butt in the worker race.

Borealis, your worker counts seems to be way to low to sustain progress and only 2 workers for 6 (almost 7) cities would mean that you are probably way low on road count which will is really starting to show up in you tech research rate.

Cracker, I don't know about 1790 Bc, but I definately have an embassy with Babylon by 1525 BC. Also, one of my workers is a foreign national, if that makes any difference.

I believe when your pyramid finish you will take quite a lead

Lee, I will sell you mathematics for 250 golds and, hmm, 10gpt?

1500 BC - Gordium is formed.
1375 BC - Bactra is formed.
(I) We already get the offer for the FP to be built.
1250 BC - Sidon is formed.
1125 BC - Tyre is formed.
(I) Tarsus is hit by disease
1025 BC - Sardis is formed.
1000 BC - Samaria is formed.
900 BC - I find a goody hut, but all I get is a warrior.
875 BC - Hamadan is formed.
850 BC - Ergili is formed.

Summary - I can tell we are on warlord; the tech pace is painfully slow.

@Cracker - If you want run a section like this at emperor, I would love to play it.
I can tell I am playing a bit lazy, since I know I can slaughter warlord.

I did make one critical mistake - I failed to notice the goal of Space Race until I started these turns. My play would have been different if I realized that.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA1-LKENDTER-1275BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA1-LKENDTER-1025BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/HA1-LKENDTER-775BC.zip


@JaxomCA - They would be insulted by that deal

LK, evidence that the early granary helped as much or more than the delay of the 1st settler hurt is there in the above chart. You are tops on units/people score other than Jaxom (who got a free settler) and you are 2nd on improvements score behind cracker. At this stage of the game those are the most important metrics, so I'd say you are doing quite well, better than your overall score would indicate. (Not to say it couldn't be better... )

Zed-F thats good insight on only looking at the units and improvements scores at this point. That really helps make these numbers usable despite the random events of the barbs (with the exception of Jaxoms settler). That moves me from the massive peloton to 4th in units and 6th in improvements. Now I know what I haven't been focusing on. Thanks.

LK-
Yeah I had to go back and see where Space Race was defined too. Totally didn't remember it.

In what way would you have done things differently though? Since so far most techs have been of barb origin.

Originally posted by cracker - Post ID 591334
I would recommend that since this game is started primarily by Handyandy that we adopt an objective that seem similar to his last game approach and that objective would be to go for the quickest possible Space Ship victory. To do this we will need to maximize our longterm science research pace and expand the size and power of our civilization as quickly as possible.

This is a Warlord level game, so we should expect to be ahead in tech research under most conditions because we can research technology cheaper than the AI players.

We will also expect to encounter contact with the other civilizations on our map and will probably need to engage in a war or two to make sure we have enough territory and resources to dominate the game and achieve our major objective of winning the Space Race.

Click to expand...

If we are to aim mainly at a spacerace win, what should we really be doing different? Maybe build tech improvements, libraries, etc. Maybe build lots of cities, (Lee's doing good on that!)

Lee, if you've got too much money, put your science rate up, and if you're getting it a considerable amount of time quicker, it doen't matter if you lose a few gold per turn, does it?

Also, do you think that building the granary helped in Lee's game? Nice idea, just that by the time you've built it, you could've built 2 settlers. So, does it pay you back then??

Aiming for a space race victory at this difficulty level means the more science you produce, the sooner you will win. Building many cities is a big part, until there is too much corruption for them to be useful. Researching techs that increase commerce/science is another part. Building roads quickly to increase commerce, acquiring Literature early to build libraries, getting to a better government to reduce corruption and increase commerce, these were my targets from the very start. The tech I got from huts were mostly extra gravy (except math and philosophy, that was a boon!).

Have fun!

James, you're only counting shields, not growth. At the earliest stages of the game food is the limiting factor. You will probably NOT be able to build two settlers by the time you complete the granary, because building the granary first gives you more commerce and more spt from having a bigger city, and furthermore allows you to save on food so you can stay bigger when you do start pumping out settlers so you can pump them out faster. Not building a granary means that once you're done that first settler, you're right back to where you started, so the 30 shields for the second settler takes much longer to accumulate than the 30 shields for the 2nd half of the granary, due to the city growth that has occurred during the granary build.

This doesn't mean it's always wrong to build a settler first; the food situation in your lands almost always determines whether a granary or an early settler should be your first build. Usually you don't want to build more than one settler before building a granary, however. If you compare a build where one player builds settlers only and another starts with a granary first and then pumps settlers, the granary build will usually get its first settler or two out later but will catch up and surpass the city founding rate of the settler-only build starting at about the 3rd city (depending on the availability of bonus food resources in the area.)

Originally posted by ControlFreak
LK-
Yeah I had to go back and see where Space Race was defined too. Totally didn't remember it.

In what way would you have done things differently though? Since so far most techs have been of barb origin.

Click to expand...

1) I would NOT have done a 40-turn science research project to build up cash - cash at warlord doesn't help much. At emperor, that cash would pay for trading, but I am already in a tech leader despite the 40-turn play.

2) I would have bee lined for Republic to get the extra income and lower corruption. At this low level, I have to do 100% of my own research. The more revenue, the faster the research rate and that is the key here. By the time I got to Republic, the slow warlord civs would have researched at least the first tier techs so that I could trade for them.

3) I would head toward a super-early fp in order to further improve the cash flow.

Originally posted by Zed-F
LK, evidence that the early granary helped as much or more than the delay of the 1st settler hurt is there in the above chart. You are tops on units/people score other than Jaxom (who got a free settler) and you are 2nd on improvements score behind cracker. At this stage of the game those are the most important metrics, so I'd say you are doing quite well, better than your overall score would indicate. (Not to say it couldn't be better... )

Click to expand...

Good point. I play the philosphy - if you get enough cities, and enough population - every thing else will get in order. As the turn 90 I have 2 luxuries conectted, 1 controlled, and 1 close. This sets me up for size 6 cities with a market place being all I need to stay happy until hospitals. That should let me concentrate on libraries which will be key.

Let us move on!!

The next three save points to upload and report should be:

1275bc (turn 70)
1025bc (turn 80)
775bc (turn 90)

as soon as we get all players up to turn 90, I will update some tables and powergraphs to support further discussion.

Here are my save games and the accompanying turn reports:

1275bc (turn 70)
1025bc (turn 80)
775bc (turn 90)

I am pouring on the coals for an extreme strategy choice in this game so we will have to see if this has any major positive benefit compared to other approaches:

1500 BC (turn 61) – Borders expand at Capital. Discovered Literature. Settler out of Susa heads toward Ivory Coast. Worker out of Antioch starts road to incense.
1475 BC (turn 62) – Micromanage shields in Pasagardae.
1450 BC (turn 63) – Luxuries up to 10% to keep Pasagardae happy.
1425 BC (turn 64) – Gordium founded on the coastal plains Ivory. Tuned luxuries down to 0%. Worker out of Arbela begins road to east.
1400 BC (turn 65) – Finally found the closer damn horses over to the east, reroute the east settler to claim it.
1375 BC (turn 66) – Warrior2 spies another hut in the central mountains, Yipee!
1350 BC (turn 67) –Micromanage food in Persepolis. Found Bactra out east on hill near horses. Jag warrior jumps out of the fog and poaches the hut but I watch him kill 3 barbs.
1325 BC (turn 68) – Found Sidon to fill in road east to Arbela. Begin clearing forest at Ivory to rush Library. Micromanage food/shields in Persepolis.
1300 BC (turn 69) – Jag warrior is flirting with death.
1275 BC (turn 70) – Micromanage Pasagardae to balance happiness and a scientist to get Map Making in 1 turn.



1250 BC (turn 71) – Hot swap Susa to build a Galley when Map Making is discovered. Send galley north along west coast. Shift luxuries to 70% to kick WLTKD in Pasagardae and speed Pyramids 1 turn. Worker out of Tarsus to hook up incense.
1225 BC (turn 72) – Settler out of Persepolis heads east.
1200 BC (turn 73) – Incense is connected. Micromanage Pasagardae and Persepolis. Tuned luxuries down to 60%.
1175 BC (turn 74) – Micromanage food in Persepolis.
1150 BC (turn 75) – Trade Masonry to the Montezuma for World Map (pottery is already worthless even though he doesn’t have it yet. Short rushed to speed the library in Arbela by 10 turns.
1100 BC (turn 77) – Libraries in Antioch and Gordium. Turn luxuries down to 0% because the Pyramids are guaranteed.
1075 BC (turn 78) – Settler out of Persepolis heads to fill in northwest. Galley sights more land to northwest. Cleared a square of forest and then whipped in the Library at Bactra.
1050 BC (turn 79) – Galley sees wine and iron and heads northeast along the new coast.
1025 BC (turn 80) – Pyramids complete in Pasgaradae. Assign governor in Pasagardae and Tarsus to emphasize food. Build settlers and workers everywhere possible.


1000 BC (turn 81) – Discovered Code of Laws. Founded Persepfill. Sold off the pre-Granary in Persepolis for 7 gold. Exploring Galley sees an Egyptian warrior. We trade Math for contact with Rome + World Map+3 gold. (Egypt had 5 gold but 3 was max). Trade Rome Math for World map + 46 gold (leaves 19 in their treasury).
975 BC (turn 82) – Galley heads west around Egypt.
950 BC (turn 83) – Settler out of Pasagardae heads east towards furs. Warrior garrisoning Pasagardae heads to Tarsus (incense)
925 BC (turn 84) – Settler out of Persepolis heads east. Micromanage shields in Persepolis to speed worker.
900 BC (turn 85) – Settler out of Antioch heads northeast past Tarsus. Library in Arbela. Barracks in Sidon. Workers connect horses near Bactra.
875 BC (turn 86) – Trade ROP and Math to Iroqs for World Map and Rop (I know, basically a gift.) Worker out of Persepolis; MM food to speed library.
850 BC (turn 87) – Settler out of Pasagardae heads for central Dyes. Set embassy with Rome for 57 gold. Trade them ROP for ROP + 19 gold.
825 BC (turn 88) – Settler taunts a Jag warrior in the central grassland.
800 BC (turn 89) – Workers out of Susa, Antioch, and Sidon. Found Sardis on hill next to furs near Iroqs. Found Samaria on hill next to cow north or Tarsus.
775 BC (turn 90) – Discovered Currency. Worker out of Gordium to road northwest along coast. Daring galley jumps out to explore north of Egypt. MM shields in Arbela to speed worker. Burn three people in Tarsus to rush 60 shields for Courthouse.

I had a chance to look at this map last night. It's very good for learning some building techniques.

This was a perfect map to do a "Palace Jump". Once you get to 10 to 12 cities, you start to hit the distance from the palace where corruption starts to factor heavily in new cities. That would be a good time to do a "Palace Jump", with that in mind probably the second or third city that was built could have been placed to develop as the capitol (there are so many good sites with all those rivers). That would be the city where building a granary work work and then seeded to grow to accept the new palace. If all the other cities are producing , military, workers and settlers to keep their size small; this new capitol will be the natural choice for the program algorithm to assign the palace to when the original capitol is disbanded. The move allows for your productive core to be greatly enhanced as you advance toward the other growing civs. The down side of this growth pattern is that it leaves your technology development a tech or two behind the current leaders but with a fair sized warrior base that can be upgraded to swordsmen.

I have been away and trying to catch up. Reviewed the graphs only to see my poor performance on paper. And here I thought getting all those cities out was a good thing. . Will I see the benifit of all the cities later on? I have been focusing on building cities and controlling as much territory as possible but way behind in the score.

Hotrod

Actually HotRod, if you take Zed-F's advice and only look at Units and Improvements, you're third in Units and Third in Improvements. Not only that but only 1 person (LK) is ahead of you in both catagories. Cracker leads in improvements but is behind you in units. Jax is ahead in units but is behind you in improvements. I WISH I were you.

If LK's philosophy of build good cities and the rest will come around holds true, you're in a great spot.