European socialism: functional or not?

Merkinball · May 25, 2009

Merk, could you make up your mind whether you are talking about Europe or France? - Ziggy

I was talking about France that post primarily because of Steph. I'm generalizing about Europe, and I believe that France is a pretty good barometer for Europe as a whole.

unemployment in countries Europe ranges from 3 to 14,5%. So, if you are talking about Europe I am wondering how you manage to make sweeping statements like: "But isn't that the entire point of the European welfare state? You tolerate higher unemployment and lower economic growth for more equality." - Ziggy

Again, generalizing. However, I think it is worth noting that a lot of European countries under-evaluate their unemployment numbers by not encompassing people in educational classes. Sweden, for instance, would have significantly higher unemployment, but they pay people to take classes who are unemployed, and those people are not tallied in their unemployment numbers.

Anyhow, they are just generalizations. Europe has how many countries in it? I'm not going to go nation by nation talking about each and every country, its benefits, its good attributes, and its negative attributes. I'm sure you'll understand this.

And whether the Dutch have a superiour political and economic understanding since our unemployment rate has been significantly lower than the US' for quite some time? - Ziggy

The Netherlands underwent pretty drastic economic liberalization a few decades ago. Your policies on part-time work, unemployment benefits, wage moderation, and taxation are not like France or Germany. In some respects the Netherlands is probably more economically free than America.

You're so misinformed it's not even funny anymore. To start with, we have a different kind of industry (it's all export here) and our situation is just different. Especially your part about universal health care completely misses the mark. (you have probably more choice between health care companies here that in the US) - suiraclaw

Where is here? Again, I'm generalizing because I'm not going to talk about thirty freakin' countries. We're talking about "European Socialism." But since that doesn't fit the self-appointed luminaries definition of "socialism," let's call it the stereotypical European welfare state. In most of those countries with universal healthcare systems, the vast majority of the population has no choice in regards to healthcare providers. You may, most do not. And don't even pretend that those systems are anything like the one here in America where there are dozens, if not hundreds of health insurance and HMO providers.

Steph · May 25, 2009

France is a "heavy welfare state", right?

Well, I can choose what doctor I want to see, I can buy any car I want to buy.

I don't have to buy a Renault or a Peugeot.

I don't see at all how our welfare state give us less freedom than your system.

Merkinball · May 25, 2009

Steph said:
France is a "heavy welfare state", right?

Well, I can choose what doctor I want to see, I can buy any car I want to buy.

I don't have to buy a Renault or a Peugeot.

I don't see at all how our welfare state give us less freedom than your system.

The car thing was in a strict "socialist" state mindset. Very few, if any, of the European auto makers are still nationalized.

In regards to doctor, I recall reading quite a number of articles about how the poor and middle class in France have very little in the way of doctor choice. Many doctors are given quotas in regards to patients that they must see. This kills doctor choice for many people in France and other universal healthcare systems.

You're an upper class Frenchman Steph. You're priveleged. Let's not pretend like you're some immigrant living in a banlieu just outside of France.

It's also worth noting that France suffers from healthcare rationing and a lack of access to the latest technologies, treatments, and medications, just like other nations with socialized medicine. This is true unless you are wealthy and can afford private care.

In America, our middle class have much better access to the latest medical breakthroughs and treatments. They have more choice when it comes to doctors. They have more choice when it comes to their insurance, care, and treatment.

Our poor though, are just like any other poor person in a nation with universal healthcare. They are scooped up into medicare, medicaid, or SCHIP, they don't have access to every doctor, they have to see certain doctors as prescribed by the program, they don't have access to the latest medical technologies or treatments, and they don't have access to the latest drugs on the market. Their healthcare system is way behind those in the private sector, and it's bogged down in beauracracy.

I'm not going to argue with you about how your big welfare state gives you less freedoms Steph. We've argued the points a hundred times and we never see eye to eye on anything. You think it's cool that girls can't wear hijabs in school. I don't. You think it's cool to restrict peoples freedoms because it's stuff that doesn't effect you. I don't. You don't have a problem with using the tax code to socially engineer a populace, I don't. If you don't understand how using the tax code to force people into government run programs, and thus eliminate their ability to choose doesn't effect freedom, then I really don't know what to tell you. My parents had to pay thousands of dollars in taxes to my public school. As a result they lacked the disposable income to send three kids to private schools. That's crippling freedom. And universal healthcare taxes do the same thing to the middle class. Instituting ridiculous gas taxes on people reduces their freedom to buy the car they want. Etc, etc... You don't agree. So let's just leave it at that.

Ziggy Stardust · May 25, 2009

Merkinball said:
Again, I'm generalizing because I'm not going to talk about thirty freakin' countries. We're talking about "European Socialism."

That's my point. "European Socialism" doesn't exist because there are more than thirty frickin' countries in Europe who all handle their economy and politics in a different way. Comparing one country to the average (if that's even possible) of many is close to meaningless.

Slaughter · May 25, 2009

Thorgalaeg said:
I bet you dont like Lula...

Democracy is just Oligarchy with a new name.

Lula is just some populist who hans't a strong arm capable of getting rid of the trash that permeates this country. He pretty much bribed almost half of the country into voting for him.

60% of the Brazilian politicians are corrupt scumbags using public money (MY MONEY INCLUDED!) to fund their debauchery, their massive wealth and their politic campaigns. 30% are incompetent nitwits, like those football and actors players who use their fame to get ellected. The remaining 10% are the actual honest politicians who care for the people, but they are either too stupid, too incompetent and lack influence to do something useful. Most politicians never had a real job in their adult life.

The congress is nothing but a sock puppet show. The Congress is so embroiled in their petty schemes and political games that they can't get anything actually done. The country is actually by Provisory Measures made by the president.

The Judiciary System is full of fail. They are either friends of the local rulling cliques, or too incompetent. Its congested, full of things that are supposed to be done.

The States are just olligarchies controlled by the local cliques. The Sarneys, the Barbalhos, the Magalhães and others.

The state is centralized and fat. Taxes are easily the highest of the world, and the rulling cliques uses state-owned departments to gain more money and exploit.

Frankly, at this point, I would't mind if there was a large massacre, and killed those idiots.

innonimatu · May 25, 2009

Merkinball said:
It's also worth noting that France suffers from healthcare rationing and a lack of access to the latest technologies, treatments, and medications, just like other nations with socialized medicine. This is true unless you are wealthy and can afford private care.

Oh, really? "Rationing", you say?

Whereas in the great U. S. of A. the poor go straight to the hospital for any illness and "can afford" to get the best treatment available... :crazyeye:

Oh, wait, they can't! It's the other way around.

Slaughter said:
60% of the Brazilian politicians are corrupt scumbags using public money (MY MONEY INCLUDED!) to fund their debauchery, their massive wealth and their politic campaigns. 30% are incompetent nitwits, like those football and actors players who use their fame to get ellected. The remaining 10% are the actual honest politicians who care for the people, but they are either too stupid, too incompetent and lack influence to do something useful. Most politicians never had a real job in their adult life.

The congress is nothing but a sock puppet show. The Congress is so embroiled in their petty schemes and political games that they can't get anything actually done. The country is actually by Provisory Measures made by the president.

The Judiciary System is full of fail. They are either friends of the local rulling cliques, or too incompetent. Its congested, full of things that are supposed to be done.

Seems like declaring independence was pointless - you've copied our "Estado Novo" and now you're copying out democratic politics too! :lol:

Things are probably not as bad as you think anyway...

Steph · May 26, 2009

Merkinball said:
The car thing was in a strict "socialist" state mindset. Very few, if any, of the European auto makers are still nationalized.

Even if the auto maker were nationalized, it doesn't mean the auto dealers are, or that the borders are closed to foreign cars.

Merkinball said:
In regards to doctor, I recall reading quite a number of articles about how the poor and middle class in France have very little in the way of doctor choice.

Completly false. Poor and middle class can see the doctors they want. Oh, they may not see THE specialist if he has very expensive prices, but in the US they can't either.
However, they are free to choose.

Merkinball said:
Many doctors are given quotas in regards to patients that they must see. This kills doctor choice for many people in France and other universal healthcare systems.

False again.

Merkinball said:
You're an upper class Frenchman Steph. You're priveleged.

Oh? I'm happy to learn that. Perhaps I'll be able to change my computer. I've been hopping for thatfor 3 yeas but can't afford it. What makes you think I'm upper class?

Merkinball said:
Let's not pretend like you're some immigrant living in a banlieu just outside of France.

They benefits from universal healthcare coverage, I don't. I don't see the point of your remark.

Merkinball said:
In America, our middle class have much better access to the latest medical breakthroughs and treatments. They have more choice when it comes to doctors. They have more choice when it comes to their insurance, care, and treatment.

Our middle class can also choose theoir doctors or complementary insurance.

Merkinball said:
Our poor though, are just like any other poor person in a nation with universal healthcare. They are scooped up into medicare, medicaid, or SCHIP, they don't have access to every doctor, they have to see certain doctors as prescribed by the program, they don't have access to the latest medical technologies or treatments, and they don't have access to the latest drugs on the market.

Our poors can choose their doctors, and have access to the latest technologies or treatments, if their health situation requires it.

My parents had to pay thousands of dollars in taxes to my public school. As a result they lacked the disposable income to send three kids to private schools. That's crippling freedom.

That's ridiculous. I was able to go to a very good school, for less than 1000 / year, including housing, because the tax system allow good students to do it.
My parents were poor, and they couldn't have afford to pay for it. With our system, I had the freedom to choose to do what I wanted despiste this.
You prefer a system were stupid people are free to go were they want if their parents have load of moneys.
I prefer a system were smart people are free to go were they want even if their parents have no money.

I prefer a system based on mutual help and promotting merits than an egocentric system based on money.

And about the awful French system. With the crisis:
- GDP : Germany : -3.8%, France : - 1.2%
- Growth : Estonia: -6.8%, France : -0.4%
- Unemployment : Spain : 14.5%, France : 8%
- Deficit : UK : 8.8%, Ireland, 11%, France: 5.4%
- Food price: Bulgaria +25%, UE average : 7.1%, France : +5.5%
- Poverty : 21% in Ireland, Greece or Slovakia, EU average 16%, France : 13.2%

Our system is perhaps not perfect but at least it has some buffer effect on the crisis.

Princeps · May 26, 2009

Europe never seriously lagged behind the US. Europe was never chronically less productive or employing in general.

The bubblicious United States economy distorted the picture.

Here's a good take on it:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/reconsidering-a-miracle/

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/press...u.s.-productivity-growth-still-trails-europe/

suiraclaw · May 26, 2009

Merkinball said:
(...)

In Belgium, the part of the healthcare system that is obligatory, is distributed by "mutualiteiten". There are 60 of those (according to wikipedia). For 10 million people. Additionally, there are quite a bit of insurances that only do private insurances that aren't in those 60. I don't know how many though, nor how many there are in the USA. Still, the fact alone that I can chose right now between (at least*) 60 health insurances just for the public part makes your whole argument moot already.

Your claim that the private healthcare system gives better quality isn't supported by studies.

*) I wonder if I can enlist myself in insurances over the border...

Merkinball · May 26, 2009

Whereas in the great U. S. of A. the poor go straight to the hospital for any illness and "can afford" to get the best treatment available...

Oh, wait, they can't! It's the other way around. - innonimatu

I'm not so sure you know a whole lot about the American healthcare system. We have laws in place where anyone who walks into a hospital with an emergency for any illness or injury and must recieve that top of the line care. Hospitals, by law, must do everything in their power to save everyone. And that doesn't matter if they have health insurance, medicaid, medicare, an HMO, no insurance, or even an illegal immigrant.

Even if the auto maker were nationalized, it doesn't mean the auto dealers are, or that the borders are closed to foreign cars. - Steph

In a strict socialist state they absolutely would be. Unless the last three pages on absolute socialism are wrong.

Poor and middle class can see the doctors they want. Oh, they may not see THE specialist if he has very expensive prices, but in the US they can't either. - Steph

I'm middle class. When I destroyed my shoulder in 2001, I saw one of the best orthopedic surgeons in America (he does orthopedics for the Buffalo Bills, and Buffalo Sabres.) My electro-cardiologist is ranked among the top five on the planet. If you get a referral in the private side, then you see the doctor here.

Oh? I'm happy to learn that. Perhaps I'll be able to change my computer. I've been hopping for thatfor 3 yeas but can't afford it. What makes you think I'm upper class? - Steph

Your line of work. The average income in France. Maybe I should have simply said above average wage earner.

They benefits from universal healthcare coverage, I don't. I don't see the point of your remark. - Steph

My point is that you're not benefitting as much from universal healthcare programs in France. You have more choice and more freedom when it comes to your healthcare. The people in the slums do not have that liberty.

That's ridiculous. I was able to go to a very good school, for less than 1000 € / year, including housing, because the tax system allow good students to do it. - Steph

That's fine. France isn't the US is it now?

My parents were poor, and they couldn't have afford to pay for it. With our system, I had the freedom to choose to do what I wanted despiste this.
You prefer a system were stupid people are free to go were they want if their parents have load of moneys.
I prefer a system were smart people are free to go were they want even if their parents have no money. - Steph

I don't even think you know what you're arguing here...

And about the awful French system. With the crisis:
- GDP : Germany : -3.8%, France : - 1.2%
- Growth : Estonia: -6.8%, France : -0.4%
- Unemployment : Spain : 14.5%, France : 8%
- Deficit : UK : 8.8%, Ireland, 11%, France: 5.4%
- Food price: Bulgaria +25%, UE average : 7.1%, France : +5.5%
- Poverty : 21% in Ireland, Greece or Slovakia, EU average 16%, France : 13.2%

Our system is perhaps not perfect but at least it has some buffer effect on the crisis. - Steph

Why are you just looking at the crisis? Why not look at the past eight years since the last recession? Ireland and the UK have wildly outperformed France economically. Particularly Ireland. Estonia has seen double digit economic growth over that same period. They fall harder over a one year recession and that means France is doing better than them? Bulgaria is still essentially a developing and non-industrialized nation. Much of eastern Europe is still trying to emerge from the red curtain. The poverty line in Ireland is significantly higher than the poverty line in France. Naturally more people will fall under that in Ireland.

And who cares about all that. We're talking about social programs not maximizing economic growth, employment and productivity. And as you say, at least you have that buffer. You like the buffer, I like productivity. So be it.

At Princeps: Krugman economics = fail. Not worth wasting time reading his innane drivel.

Your claim that the private healthcare system gives better quality isn't supported by studies. - suiraclaw

LOL...okay...

Mise · May 26, 2009

Europe is functioning just fine, thanks! I don't think that there is a single correct way of ensuring economic growth, nor do I believe that economic growth and social welfare are mutually exclusive; there is no trade off or balance to be struck between the two, we simply need to use different tools to tackle different problems. A lot of European nations enjoy substantial economic growth, whilst maintaining a strong welfare state. I don't understand why there is such acerbic animosity towards these models, when it's clear that the people living under them are thriving, healthy, well educated, prosperous and happy.

EDIT: Also I don't think it's worth anyone's while talking to Merkinball anymore...

Cheezy the Wiz · May 26, 2009

Merkinball said:
I'm not so sure you know a whole lot about the American healthcare system. We have laws in place where anyone who walks into a hospital with an emergency for any illness or injury and must recieve that top of the line care. Hospitals, by law, must do everything in their power to save everyone. And that doesn't matter if they have health insurance, medicaid, medicare, an HMO, no insurance, or even an illegal immigrant.

...and then they spend the next twenty years dodging bankrupcy and basically putting their lives on hold trying to pay for the hospital and surgery bills. That's where the problem is, Merk. We shouldn't have to do that.

In a strict socialist state they absolutely would be. Unless the last three pages on absolute socialism are wrong.

No, in a socialist state, the business would be controlled by the workers who work them. Nationalization is but one way for that to happen (provided the government is democratic); collective ownership by the employees is far more preferable.

I'm middle class. When I destroyed my shoulder in 2001, I saw one of the best orthopedic surgeons in America (he does orthopedics for the Buffalo Bills, and Buffalo Sabres.) My electro-cardiologist is ranked among the top five on the planet. If you get a referral in the private side, then you see the doctor here.

Why should you need a foot in the door to get medical care if you need it? I don't know anyone in the field, are you telling me I can get equal medical care if I shattered my shoulder tomorrow? And if not, then how is that fair?

Merkinball · May 26, 2009

...and then they spend the next twenty years dodging bankrupcy and basically putting their lives on hold trying to pay for the hospital and surgery bills. That's where the problem is, Merk. We shouldn't have to do that. - Cheezy

The poor don't. Illegal immigrants don't. Some middle and upper class people will. But not the poor and downtrodden. Why do you think an aspirin costs $13 in a hospital?

Why should you need a foot in the door to get medical care if you need it? I don't know anyone in the field, are you telling me I can get equal medical care if I shattered my shoulder tomorrow? And if not, then how is that fair? - Cheezy

I didn't have a foot in the door. My primary care physician gave me a list of choices for specialized care. I said, "I want doctor so and so," they called that phsyicians office and I got in. It's not like I belong to some secret society that allowed me access to these fine physicians. That was my entire point. I'm just a commoner, with a common doctor, but thanks to our system I had easy access to the best care possible.

Cheezy the Wiz · May 26, 2009

Merkinball said:
The poor don't. Illegal immigrants don't. Some middle and upper class people will. But not the poor and downtrodden. Why do you think an aspirin costs $13 in a hospital?

Are you saying the poor don't have debts to pay back? Are you serious? Besides, its not just the poor who can be ruined by unexpected medical costs, there are plenty of middle class people who can be run into bankruptcy by them as well.

Merkinball · May 26, 2009

Cheezy the Wiz said:
Are you saying the poor don't have debts to pay back? Are you serious? Besides, its not just the poor who can be ruined by unexpected medical costs, there are plenty of middle class people who can be run into bankruptcy by them as well.

I'm totally serious. The poor do not pay. They never pay. They don't have to. If you fall under certain thresholds they can't touch you when it comes to healthcare. That's why the rest of us pay so much for it. Most poor people are on medicare and medicaid anyway. Those people don't get debts either. Illegal immigrants do not get debts. It's all subsidized by tax payers and patients within the system. That's why an aspirin is $13. I worked in a hospital for a long, long time. My grandmother was an administrator, my mom is a director of human resources, one works in the pharmacy, another is a speech pathologist. The poor -- do not -- pay.

The middle class and upper middle class are the ones who get burned into bankruptcy. This is because they choose not to have insurance. Their income thresholds fall above the "charity line," and thus the hospitals go after them. The perception is that if you earn X amount of dollars, you can pay back your bills.

The vast majority of people will not be pushed into bankruptcy over medical bills. Even staggering medical bills. Nearly every state in the country has legislation that requires hospitals to make repayment for these people affordable, and it's not supposed to dock your credit if you make these payments. When I say low, it's like...$20 a month. I know this from my last visit to the ICU last April, the VA was problematic, the hospital offered my a payment plan.

Long story short. If you're poor, you don't suffer these things because you're poor. If you're in the middle class, you should pay for some damn health insurance. If you're in good health, it's not expensive.

Dachs · May 26, 2009

Slaughter said:
Actually, you don't have a say in nothing.

I can't believe there are still people who believe in the myth of democracy.

Do yourself a favor and never read anything Kenneth Arrow wrote. It will just make you more depressed.

Imperialmajesty · May 27, 2009

European "Socialism", since people will say it is not socialism(whatever that means), is a very successful form of economic policy that has done wonders for many Europeans.

One qualm, it seems to be best instituted in relatively low population countries.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/05/wo...l-world-happiest_slide_2.html?thisSpeed=15000

innonimatu · May 27, 2009

Dachs said:
Do yourself a favor and never read anything Kenneth Arrow wrote. It will just make you more depressed.

The only thing depressing about Arrow's writings is that so many people took his speculations about fantasy worlds (assuming that...) seriously!

Merkinball said:
The poor don't. Illegal immigrants don't. Some middle and upper class people will. But not the poor and downtrodden. Why do you think an aspirin costs $13 in a hospital?

But when poor people get an headache they would be able to go to an hospital to get an aspirin and they can get it free or simply refute to pay later, is that it? Your problem is that you have a strange understanding of what an emergency is! Or you're just pretending that you don't understand the issue.

It seems that Mise is right, it's as good as talking to a wall.

Princeps · May 27, 2009

At Princeps: Krugman economics = fail. Not worth wasting time reading his innane drivel.

I cited a study in addition to Krugman's article.

Read them.

he vast majority of people will not be pushed into bankruptcy over medical bills

Ahem. Healthcare costs are a leading cause of personal bankruptcy and one of the main reasons why the US fiscal situation looks so dim.

Merkinball · May 27, 2009

But when poor people get an headache they would be able to go to an hospital to get an aspirin and they can get it free or simply refute to pay later, is that it? Your problem is that you have a strange understanding of what an emergency is! Or you're just pretending that you don't understand the issue. - Innon

Yes, yes they can. We have laws in this country that require people who visit emergency rooms to be treated and seen. So if a poor person complains of a headache, they will be treated and get their $13 aspirin. They don't pay, and those costs are matriculated into the rest of the system so that the hospital can balance its books.

I'd also like to point out that hospitals are REQUIRED to have bilingual nurses on hand in most states to accomodate hispanic people. It is also illegal for hospitals to report illegal immigrants to ICE while they are in their care.

Ahem. Healthcare costs are a leading cause of personal bankruptcy and one of the main reasons why the US fiscal situation looks so dim. - Princeps

Perhaps, but again. These are people who can afford insurance readily, but choose not to have it. These are people that end up having some catastrophic injury or disease happen to them, and they fall above 200% of the poverty line. What's the hospital or doctor supposed to do? Work for free? All you need is insurance in the first place. And most of the people who end up declaring bankruptcy for medical bills are in otherwise good health and could get a policy for $200 a month out of pocket.

I'll also point out that we could substantially reduce the cost of healthcare in America if it was for catastrophe's only and people had a wee bit of skin in the game (like France

)

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