It's not Islam, is it?

Sure. I'm just allergic to monocausal explanations which people like Quackers seem to like so much. Nobody here in this thread has denied the influence "mainstream theology" (I'd prefer the term "popular theology" since actual mainstream theologists such as the influencial Al-Azhar school condemned the violence sharply), but as soon as you start to point out that there are other factors at play, certain segments of the other side go ballistic and accuse you of Islamic apologism.

luiz said:

Some are moved by anti-semitism, yes. Not all of them, nor did I claim all of them were. As a German you ought to remember that several of your communist terrorists were also rabid anti-semites.

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Of course, and I think they're as despicable as you do. But I'm capable of differentiation, and I hope you agree with me that those people don't represent even a minority worth of consideration when dealing with large groups such as "the left", despite what Quackers would want you to think with his delusions of political correctness conspiracies.

What religious violence is there in Turkey? The only thing I've heard of somewhat recently was when many Alevis were killed when a hotel was set fire, which happened many years ago.

Those theories, while they of course do have some merit, do not explain why say there were mass protests and calls for Rushdie's murder by the muslim community in the UK when he published The Satanic Verses. The UK is hardly poor, or a desert. There has been no lack of religious violence in Turkey either.

Look, it's clear that Islam in abstract terms is not to blame. The Qu'ran is not any worse than the Old Testment or many other religious texts. The issue is that the mainstream interpretation of the Qu'ran is radical and, well, frequently evil. The same is not true for the mainstream intepretation of the Old Testment. Mainstream Islam is far more repugnant than mainstream Judaism or Christiniaty, and it's hypocritical to pretend otherwise. And of course there is no Jewish or Christian equivalent to Iran, or Saudi Arabia.

Why is this case? Of course, culture, history etc. all play a large role. But the fact remains there is something wrong with the muslim world, and denying it does nobody any good. When an idiotic amateur video on YouTube mocking Mohammed causes this much death and destruction there is something very wrong. Muslim sensitivity would be laughable if it were not so tragic.

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Salman Rushdie is ages ago. As far as I have seen, the last week there have been more riots in Europe in queues for Apple stores than because of this movie.

There wasn't anything "mainstream" at all about the handful of Muslims who protested in the UK, much less those who demanded Rushdie's death.

Again, much of these protests have nothing at all to do with a handful of people insulting Mohammed and Islam. They have far more to do with other issues.

Mohammed Morsi, the new president of Egypt, summed up the current situation quite eloquently:

CAIRO — On the eve of his first visit to the United States as Egypt's president, Islamist Mohammed Morsi said he will demonstrate more independence from the U.S. in decision-making than his predecessor Hosni Mubarak and told Washington not to expect Egypt to live by its rules.

Morsi sent that message in an interview with the New York Times after a wave of violence erupted across the Muslim world over an amateur film produced in the U.S. that was deemed offensive to Islam and its prophet Muhammed. The film raised news tensions between Washington and Egypt.

Morsi criticized U.S. dealings with the Arab world, saying it is not possible to judge Egyptian behavior and decision-making by American cultural standards. He said Washington earned ill will in the region in the past by backing dictators and taking "a very clear" biased approach against the Palestinians and for Israel.

"Successive American administrations essentially purchased with American taxpayer money the dislike, if not the hatred, of the peoples of the region," he told the paper in the interview published late Saturday, drawing a clear distinction between the American government and the American people. Those administrations "have taken a very clear biased approach against something that (has) very strong emotional ties to the people of the region that is the issue of Palestine."

He stressed that unlike his predecessor, Mubarak, he will behave "according to the Egyptian people's choice and will, nothing else."

Morsi, who was sworn in on June 30 after the first democratic elections in Egypt's modern history, has been cautious not to sharply depart from Mubarak's foreign policy path, particularly the longstanding alliance with the United States.

But with an Islamist president at the helm of the Arab world's most populous country, there are already differences and changes of focus. Morsi has been expected to distance himself from what many Egyptians saw as Mubarak's compliance with Washington's agenda in the Middle East, especially because his Muslim Brotherhood group has been a vocal critic of U.S. policy in the region and in the Muslim world.

In the interview, Morsi dismissed criticism that he responded too slowly when protesters managed to scale the walls of the heavily fortified U.S. Embassy in Cairo on Sept. 11. The demonstrators replaced the American flag with a banner carrying the Islamic declaration of faith.

Morsi said he needed to deal with the situation "wisely" and took time to avoid a backlash from an angry but small crowd of protesters.

While he praised President Barack Obama for moving "decisively and quickly" to support Arab Spring uprisings against longtime authoritarian leaders, he said Arabs like Americans want to live "free in their own land, according to their customs and values, in a fair and democratic fashion."

To this end, Morsi urged the U.S. to live up to its commitments to support an independent Palestinian state.

Since taking office, Morsi, 61, has been immersed in largely foreign policy issues. He has strongly criticized the Syria regime for violently repressing the uprising there, tried to warm relations with the Palestinians, and has dealt with tensions between the Middle East and the West over the anti-Islam film.

Reflecting the tension with Washington over the protests, Obama was asked about Egypt a day after anti-U.S. protests broke out in Egypt on Sept. 11 and he said he does not consider it an ally or an enemy.

The Times asked Morsi if the U.S. was an ally, to which he replied with a laugh by saying: "That depends on your definition of ally."

But he quickly followed by saying he wants a real friendship with the U.S.

"I think what I am trying seriously (is to) look into the future and to see that we are real friends."

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AlpsStranger said:

Only fools deny that Islam has serious issues at this point. I'm going to be called bigoted or Islamophobic, but I don't really care how you label it. I'm not a real pal to Christianity, as anyone else on here will tell you, but Islam is definitely going through a period of serious turmoil right now.

I don't think U.S. bombs can be blamed for honor killings or the execution of apostates. We hardly force them to dress their women like Jawas and put them under house arrest.

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I don't really see Islam as having any issues. Why do Muslims in the U.S. not do these things in response to the film? Answer: because it's a cultural problem, not a religious problem. I live across the street from a mosque, and I never felt safer. The problem isn't with the Muslims, it's with Middle Eastern (and North African) countries.

haroon said:

But the things is they don't even use religion to justify their action. Honor killing is something that been carry on in their tradition, just like face tatoo by traditional Kurdish while having tatoo is contradict and forbiden in Islamic doctrine but they go on using it because its part of their tradition. Not every act that come from Muslim society base on Islamic teaching or difference view or interpretation of Islamic doctrine. Some of it already there before Islam and still carry on.

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The issue is that its only the Islamic cultures that have these things. The culture and the religion are not completely separate.

Now, the people on college campuses damning everyone to hell is one thing but people practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam is another. I've had people return from the Middle Easter countries and many of them tell of these things happening from time to time. Its not that uncommon. At this point, I can't really think that Islam is actually a religion of peace.

Egypt just had an election and they basically voted for Sharia law, which is fine with me. Let them have it, but don't blame anyone else if their country fails to make any progress or falls behind everywhere else. Too many people with the "kill people but don't insult our prophet signs".

You can say its the culture in that region but you'd be foolish to say Islam hasn't influenced that culture. The fact is that majority muslim countries are extremely repressive with or without US influence.

Egypt just had an election and they basically voted for Sharia law,

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I wasn't aware Morsi had fundamentally changed Egypt's essentially French legal system.
Morsi might have increased the scope of religious arbitration courts used to settle civil matters as long as both parties consent. However, allowing religious courts to handle civil matters isn't uncommon. America allows Jewish religious courts to handle civil arbitration, and the UK allows both Jewish and Islamic courts.

I predict in the next few years if the government is able to hold power, rights will become less and less and it will revert to sharia sooner or later, at least in the ways of repressing women. The more conservative Islamic groups, at least from what I heard, were the ones who won out.

Has the Muslim Brotherhood given you any indication that is actually a formal policy objective of theirs, or are you assuming that because they fall under the very broad umbrella of "Islamist"?

Well on their english language website, they state that they want to introduce "Shari`ah" as the basis for controlling the affairs of state and society. I don't think Shari'ah is that bad in its pure form but what it always ends up as is horribly repressive. I pretty sure its going to default to what it usually ends as, because they haven't given me any reason to believe differently.

Any group who has the stated goal of using the Quran and Sunnah(or any other religious book) being the sole reference for ordering the affairs of family, society, or state, I have little faith in. It never really ends up well.

Leoreth said:

Sure. I'm just allergic to monocausal explanations which people like Quackers seem to like so much. Nobody here in this thread has denied the influence "mainstream theology" (I'd prefer the term "popular theology" since actual mainstream theologists such as the influencial Al-Azhar school condemned the violence sharply), but as soon as you start to point out that there are other factors at play, certain segments of the other side go ballistic and accuse you of Islamic apologism.

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A lot people here deny that there is a substantial problem in the muslim world. A lot of people downplay it as the work of few radicals, not at all different from what we see in Western nations. That's BS and needs to be called out.

Leoreth said:

Of course, and I think they're as despicable as you do. But I'm capable of differentiation, and I hope you agree with me that those people don't represent even a minority worth of consideration when dealing with large groups such as "the left", despite what Quackers would want you to think with his delusions of political correctness conspiracies.

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The anti-semites are a small minority in the left, sure. But I listed other reasons why many leftists have supported/apologised radical Islam, and those aren't very small groups, I'm afraid.

NovaKart said:

What religious violence is there in Turkey? The only thing I've heard of somewhat recently was when many Alevis were killed when a hotel was set fire, which happened many years ago.

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I was thinking indeed of the massacre of Alevis and the targeting of the Turkish translator of The Satanic Verses. That was in 1993, not that distant for a massacre. I wouldn't exatcly say the odds of that happening again have decreased in Turkey.

dutchfire said:

Salman Rushdie is ages ago. As far as I have seen, the last week there have been more riots in Europe in queues for Apple stores than because of this movie.

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No, he was not ages ago. The most intense campaign against him happened in the 90's. What's more, things probably got worse. Rushdie himself has said that in the present environment hardly major writer would dare write The Satanic Verses. So islamic radicalism actually won this fight. We're now supposed to treat muslims with much care than everybody else because otherwise they will burn and kill.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

people practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam is another. I've had people return from the Middle Easter countries and many of them tell of these things happening from time to time. Its not that uncommon.

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OMG. I heard that once a muslim took a baby, and then killed the baby, and then ate the baby, and then made the baby live in a dark basement with only oatmeal and dirty water, even

Oh, and then when the baby cried, the muslim made the baby eat saurkraut. then he killed it again.

Oh, oh,. and , also, did you know the baby also was a very good baby? Yeah, it even cleaned the dishes sometimes. But it never broke any dishes.

Oh, oh oh, and also, when the muslim was making the baby live in a dark basement, the muslim practically made it sleep on broken glasses and dirty nails that baby had to use when it went potty

At this point, I can't really think that Islam is actually a religion of peace.

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"religion of peace" No religion is a "religion of peace" It's just a set of rules that people choose to follow or not follow at their discretion and cultural upbringing and social conditioning.

Egypt just had an election and they basically voted for Sharia law, which is fine with me. Let them have it, but don't blame anyone else if their country fails to make any progress or falls behind everywhere else. Too many people with the "kill people but don't insult our prophet signs".

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Let's be clear about something. Egypt's elections were rigged, and the protesters who wanted democracy knew it. only about 50% of Egyptians voted for Islamist Morsi or Mubarak's guy.

It's a sad state of affairs. Morsi can try to impose hard core sharia, but I seriously doubt the masses will stand for it.

God forbid they get violent in fighting the imposition of sharia, because then that would just once again prove that Islam is inherently violent, right?

luiz said:

A lot people here deny that there is a substantial problem in the muslim world. A lot of people downplay it as the work of few radicals, not at all different from what we see in Western nations. That's BS and needs to be called out.

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The "muslim world" has many problems, also has many people. It also is not one big homogenous world.

But simplistic minds make simplistic generalizations, and offer simplistic explanations, and then the simplistic solutions.

Please luiz, explain exactly what "the muslim world" is.

We're now supposed to treat muslims with much care than everybody else because otherwise they will burn and kill.

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Oh, like all the world's governments licking the feet of America at every opportunity.
Muslims don't do the lion's share of burning and killing. That's America and it's NATO stooges.

Don't know why you people always flip out about a few riots where a few protesters are killed by police, but forget all the hundreds of thousands of people killed by American wars. You islamaphobes always flip out about a KFC getting its windows broken in Cairo, but completely ignore entire cities like Sirte and Fallujah being razed.

Duh big bad muslim riot breaks windows, big bad america destroys entire cities, but its dah mooslim that's ultra-violent?

Neomega said:

The "muslim world" has many problems, also has many people. It also is not one big homogenous world.

But simplistic minds make simplistic generalizations, and offer simplistic explanations, and then the simplistic solutions.

Please luiz, explain exactly what "the muslim world" is.

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MENA, bits of Sub-Saharan Africa, and Indonesia are generally considered the Dar-al-Islam.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

The issue is that its only the Islamic cultures that have these things. The culture and the religion are not completely separate.

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Then prove me how it related?

But first before you write your argument and fall into generalization and forwarding wrong premise for your conclusion, you must differ by definition between Islam and culture. Both is different. Islam by definition is the teaching that are in the Quran and the authentic or shahih Hadith. While culture is a habit, heritage that the community flourish before or after Islam.

If you claim that Islamic teaching is the source of multilation and honor killing it will be negate if it appear before Islam enter the region and also it will negate if it basically against Islamic teaching in both moral and ethics.

I think you not bother to read all my post, as I already address all of this clearly in this thread. As there are also a culture of muslim that against Islamic teaching for example drinking alcohol in kosovo. There also a culture that already there before Islam enter the region, for example the festival of wayang in Indonesia which is derive from Hindust stories of Mahabarata, Ramayana, etc from Viyasa.

You can't just claim Islam to effect all of this without you know what is Islam in the first place.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Now, the people on college campuses damning everyone to hell is one thing but people practically going around pointing guns at people and shooting them unless the convert to Islam is another. I've had people return from the Middle Easter countries and many of them tell of these things happening from time to time. Its not that uncommon.

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well that is very uncommon among the muslim, infact mostly the muslim really don't care if someone convert to Islam or not as long as they can be what they are, and living they sunnah and to be leave alone. But of course peoples will create myth among them and start to not leave them alone, include by provoking them into something. The things that some peoples really want to see on us is; to see that we are brutal, fight like an orc, nasty, mutilation lover, immoral, we kill our own daughter and son and rage fight back against everybody and eat them alive. So some peoples can have a clear evidence to hate and to fight muslim and Islam.

While it will not happen. Forever, mostly the one who kill the muslim in Iraq, in Palestine, in Afghanistan, etc they will never know what is the reason they must kill these peoples, for liberty? for searching Osama? for Chemical weapon? for giving them a better government and culture?

While those freedom fighter will always know the reason why should they fight back, because they must stand for their land, their ideology, the honor of their women which being rip off by the occupation soldier and in prison camp, they know exactly why they must fight.

So as moral support the west media must create a imaginary thing about us, so they hope their boys know why they must fight a barbarian like the muslim and their evil religion. Like how they do it to native american backthen, to Japan, to Vietnam, but God willing, this is gonna be a different story, trust me.

my advice, like Pink Floyd say

BRING THE BOYS BACK HOME They can't fight these peoples, never.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

At this point, I can't really think that Islam is actually a religion of peace.

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the muslim never start the war, don't call the one who fight back as not a peaceful one. Islam teach peace, loving your parents, loving your neighbor, feed the poor, not set a compulsion on religious view, but it also teach us to fight back when they been exploit. You born in US, you can see us not a peaceful religion and US and it allies as peaceful nation with peaceful ideology while you living in the core of capitalism and sitting comfort in your living room while your government must kill and rape so they can be what they are today, and making their daughter live like Pamela Anderson and their son living their life without have to worry to sign up in military operation, its your duty to be feed by the Pasthuun bullets.

But it will be different if you live in palestine, when bomb and close relative dying is your everyday pop song, when the headless baby girl and a child burn because chemistry weapon (sulfur) is your daily life seeing. How can you tell these peoples to not fight back? No they must fight. If you can respect the French fighting back against Nazi why you can't respect the muslim fight back against US imperial? what happen in the street now, peoples angry, and whole these things is nothing but explosion of energy that been keep for long time, and still peoples try to lit the fire, and it "BOMB". Then you surprise, "why they are so barbaric and uncivilized? "

it is still good the mobs not angry infront of the embassy and bring the US official and do exactly what the French peoples do at French revolution. Both of them are tired of pressing of everyday life, of Tyrant that been feed and protect by US, all of these Tyrant muslim goverment that you address are US allies, and been protect and care by the US.

Fallen Angel Lord said:

You can say its the culture in that region but you'd be foolish to say Islam hasn't influenced that culture. The fact is that majority muslim countries are extremely repressive with or without US influence.

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I never say that. Do read my previous post if you really want to know what I think.

OMG. I heard that once a muslim took a baby, and then killed the baby, and then ate the baby, and then made the baby live in a dark basement with only oatmeal and dirty water, even

Oh, and then when the baby cried, the muslim made the baby eat saurkraut. then he killed it again.

Oh, oh,. and , also, did you know the baby also was a very good baby? Yeah, it even cleaned the dishes sometimes. But it never broke any dishes.

Oh, oh oh, and also, when the muslim was making the baby live in a dark basement, the muslim practically made it sleep on broken glasses and dirty nails that baby had to use when it went potty

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You should really stop trying to make excuses for these things because they do happen. My friends have been or lived in the middle east and have witnessed these things first hand, you have not. Stop pretending that you have any authority of experience with these things in the middle east. The way that non-muslims are discriminated against in Muslim countries is far more severe than prejudice and discrimination here.

Then prove me how it related?

But first before you write you argument and fall into generalization and forwarding wrong premise for your conclusion, do must differ by definition between Islam and culture. Both is different. Islam by definition is the teaching that are in the Quran and the authentic or shahih Hadith. While culture is a habit, heritage that the community flourish before or after Islam.

If you claim that Islamic teaching is the source of multilation and honor killing it will be negate if it appear before Islam enter the region and also it basically against Islamic teaching in both moral and ethics.

I think you not bother to read all my post, as I already address all of this clearly in this thread. As there are also a culture of muslim that against Islamic teaching for example drinking alcohol in kosovo. There also a culture that already there before Islam enter the region, for example the festival of wayang in Indonesia which is derive from Hindust stories of Mahabarata, Ramayana, etc from Viyasa.

You can't just claim Islam to effect all of this without you know what is Islam in the first place.

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First of all, I don't think you know the history of Islam or that region very well and you just pretend to. Yes, Islam is one of the younger religions, but that doesn't mean it isn't 1400 years old already and its been the pre-dominant religion in ME areas for 1,000 years or more. It was already the dominant religion in the area before the crusades. A lot of the traditions and cultures that we see today were post-islam and not pre-islam.

And the non-islamic minority that lives there, including Jews(who are originally from there) don't have the same culture. The culture and its repressive attitude towards females is at least partly inspired or at least kept in place by the religion. Its not so much the Koran thats at fault, but the way people interpret it. You call out other people for lack of proof, you really don't have any either or understanding of how that area of the world has developed. Honor killings happens in ancient times, but not only in that area, its just that the rest of the world has moved on while the muslim world has not and even regressed.

For your war comment, the Arab countries did start a war with israel in the 1960s and lost, that why they lost a lot of land.

The reason why there's so many civilian casualties is because the enemies shooting at us hide within the civilian population so we can't tell who is who, we just shoot in the direct the bullets are coming from. If they didn't hide in the civilian population, we wouldn't go shoot at civilians.

Islam does teach peace in some places, but it doesn't in others. The way it was founded was certainly not peaceful. Mohammed was not like Jesus who preached love and peach and was crucified on the cross for forgiveness of everyone's sins. Mohammed basically went to war and conquered his surrounding tribes in the name of his God. His successors did pretty much the same. Those are historic facts.

Joecoolyo said:

MENA, bits of Sub-Saharan Africa, and Indonesia are generally considered the Dar-al-Islam.

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Ooh, sounds edumicated!
So "the mulsim world" is a geographical term? Ok, so what's Indonesia's problem? What about Bangladesh?

Fallen Angel Lord said:

Any group who has the stated goal of using the Quran and Sunnah(or any other religious book) being the sole reference for ordering the affairs of family, society, or state, I have little faith in. It never really ends up well.

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Do you feel the same way about fundamentalists, evangelists, and other conservative Christians doing essentially the same thing in the US, as well as South and Central America and much of Africa, on a regular basis? Or Jews who do the same thing in Israel by claiming it is their promised land and who base everything they do on the Torah?

What do you expect overly religious people to do? To be secular humanists instead?

Neomega said:

Ooh, sounds edumicated!

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So I guess there is an anti-intellectual trend in America, sigh.

Neomega said:

So "the mulsim world" is a geographical term?

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Yes.