Boredom with CIV5 demystified

JLoZeppeli said:

Yes that's the reason because FIFA AND PRO EVOLUTION ARE POPOULAR...

So It's true that Football Manager is slowly becoming popular, but it's far away from the popularity of Civilization... It's a football management game.... So A basket management game how much could sell worldwide, being the SECOND most popular sport game after soccer???

Click to expand...

Not really. Civilization is unique. You are comparing a game with a genre.

markantony said:

Dunno, but Sports Interactive have done ok, despite only making Football Manager. Simply put, saying that Football managment is a niche market is wrong.

Click to expand...

Really? I would say it is a niche, maybe not a tiny one but still far from the sales of the best selling games. In fact, if PC games in general might be on their way to becoming a niche: their sales are dwarfed by console game sales and they provide for a sort of consumer with special tastes.

But anyways, does it matter if you call something a niche or not? The question is: how much do they sell?

To the OP, you assert that Sid Meier is not a good game designer. My assumption here is that you are evaluating Sid Meier in his professional capacity as game designer at a for-profit corporate entity. I make this assumption because if you are not evaluating Sid in a professional, for-profit capacity, it would make no sense to cite only games that fall into that category.

Ultimately, games produced by corporate entities are done so to generate as much profit as possible. To succeed in the professional role of game designer for a corporation, games must be designed in a manner that maximizes profit (both in the short-term and long-term). The financial success of Sid Meier's projects speaks to his talent as a professional game designer.

I assume since you included the link, you took the time to actually watch Sid's keynote. While I came away rather unimpressed with most of the content in the speech, I did take notice of something. Sid's talk largely hinged around placing aside personal ego in order to make a more financially successful game. He spoke of legitimately interesting game mechanics that he slashed in order to appeal to his audience. He set aside his personal opinion of what made a good game and even what made logical sense in order to make a game that was successful.

Few if any people on this forum show the same humility. Far too many people here either naively ignore the financial component of game development or feel that a game conforming to their desires would be a more financially successful game. That view is constantly reinforced by like-minded individuals. But if Sid Meier and the people he oversees took that approach, they would not be able to turn out financially successful games. Successful commercial game design requires acknowledging that your own personal view of what is right and what is fun is often wrong for the majority of your audience. If nothing else, the extensive work going into patching Civ5 is an indicator that the audience is heard.

Ultimately the success of a game is measured in terms of dollars generated and brand-loyalty earned. Often, this is not synonymous with releasing a game that has the greatest complexity and depth. Sid knows that. He accepts it. He puts his ego aside, and he continues to see financial success as a result. But credit Sid with also seeing the value of modding to his franchise. Should you be right, and should your opinion of what makes a successful game be legitimate, a wildly popular mod will emerge to validate your opinion.

You may not feel Sid Meier produces good games. But his financial success suggests you are incorrect to assert he is not good at his profession.

alpaca said:

Really? I would say it is a niche, maybe not a tiny one but still far from the sales of the best selling games. In fact, if PC games in general might be on their way to becoming a niche: their sales are dwarfed by console game sales and they provide for a sort of consumer with special tastes.

But anyways, does it matter if you call something a niche or not? The question is: how much do they sell?

Click to expand...

Football Manager 2011 went straight to the top of the all format chart in the UK.

mercury529 said:

You may not feel Sid Meier produces good games. But his financial success suggests you are incorrect to assert he is not good at his profession.

Click to expand...

I have no quarrel with shallow mass-market games, after all my first example is Super Mario, which is a really shallow, mass-market game.

But Civilization V is not just shallower than Civilization IV, it's also boring, which brings the problem to a whole new level.

Also, I didn't mind Civ: Revolution because it wasn't a real Civilization game. And it didn't pretend to be. It was something else, being aimed at a different, broader publicum.

I understand that every company needs to make a profit out of what it does, but you don't need to split the customer population before the game is purchased, you can also do it within the game. World of Warcraft is a perfect example of this (raider vs. casual), as is Modern Warfare (single player vs. multiplayer).

It wouldn't be unheard of to implement additional features for "advanced players" in games. Civilization V could've been a really easy-to-learn game by removing world wonders or policies, just to add these features in "advanced mode". It isn't unheard of because at least four of these types of options were already available in Civilization IV: no tech trading, no espionage, no permanent pacts, no vassal states. You could easily "dumb down" your game. Why Firaxis didn't pursue this logic I don't know. Start with minimum effort (just basic mechanics, combat) and then enable adding unit upgrades, social policies, wonders, research agreements or whatever.

So, instead of making basically two games at price of one, we got two half-games (not really first-timer friendly, not really hardcore-friendly).

Bibor said:

I have no quarrel with shallow mass-market games, after all my first example is Super Mario, which is a really shallow, mass-market game.

But Civilization V is not just shallower than Civilization IV, it's also boring, which brings the problem to a whole new level.

Also, I didn't mind Civ: Revolution because it wasn't a real Civilization game. And it didn't pretend to be. It was something else, being aimed at a different, broader publicum.

I understand that every company needs to make a profit out of what it does, but you don't need to split the customer population before the game is purchased, you can also do it within the game. World of Warcraft is a perfect example of this (raider vs. casual), as is Modern Warfare (single player vs. multiplayer).

It wouldn't be unheard of to implement additional features for "advanced players" in games. Civilization V could've been a really easy-to-learn game by removing world wonders or policies, just to add these features in "advanced mode". It isn't unheard of because at least four of these types of options were already available in Civilization IV: no tech trading, no espionage, no permanent pacts, no vassal states. You could easily "dumb down" your game. Why Firaxis didn't pursue this logic I don't know. Start with minimum effort (just basic mechanics, combat) and then enable adding unit upgrades, social policies, wonders, research agreements or whatever.

So, instead of making basically two games at price of one, we got two half-games (not really first-timer friendly, not really hardcore-friendly).

Click to expand...

Civ5 is a single game in Sid's portfolio. Even if it proves to be a monumental failure that leads to the downfall of all his future endeavors, he is still one of the most financially successful game designers of all time. Your argument that he is not good at his profession is simply untrue. A professional game designer is charged with making a profitable game. Sid Meier has a proven track record that is among the best in the industry.

As for your opinions of the game, they are just that - your opinions. Ultimately, there is certainly some validity to your complaints as they apply to the financial success of the Civilization series. They are not valid because you think them. Rather they are valid because a large enough percentage of the audience thinks them. Thus far, Firaxis has shown a willingness to listen to its audience, to abandon some of its opinions in the interest of appealing to that audience, and to patch the game accordingly.

If your interest is in seeing this game conform to your beliefs, you should take the time to submit feedback to Firaxis/2k. Maybe more importantly, if you lack the capabilities to do so yourself, you should solicit mod designers to implement your ideas. If your personal beliefs on game design are shared by others, you should be able to aid in the development of a popular mod that offers the complexity and depth you are looking for. The beauty of modding is that "new" games can be created that are not burdened by the financial considerations a company like Firaxis has. There are many niches that are sufficiently large to warrant a mod but insufficient to support a development studio. Since I sincerely doubt you have the resources to know whether your ideas appeal to a niche market or to the general Civ5 audience, I would suggest you explore both avenues.

neptune2000 said:

Wow. Games are entertainment. I think a simple analogy is the movie. I can infer from your post that (unless you work in the movie industry) you've never criticized a film. You're probably alone in that. Enough said.

Yes, the OP comes off as a bit, uh, "sure of himself", but he's certainly entitled to his opinion, even if it bashes the Civfather. He may be right here and wrong there, but his argument is well-reasoned. And if anyone at Firaxis/Take 2 reads the well-reasoned threads, the result may be game improvements (look at the new patch notes from yesterday).

And for what it's worth, industry awards are usually full of sh*t.

Click to expand...

Hello? An opinion and an insult are two different things.

markantony said:

Um...sorry but that is not a very good argument. By that standard nobody could judge anything unless they had done it themselves.

I can`t build a car, but I can tell you that my current car is better that my first car.

Click to expand...

Your missing the whole point. Sure he can judge CiV! You can judge any game and give a review on it from just playing it. The problem is, claiming how someone was involved in the development of a game when you have no way of knowing that information. He says Sid Meier has simply just slapped his name on several products and had nothing to do with the development. I don't know where some people come up with rumors like this and furthermore, they have absolutely no proof of this. Its like how do would they this? They don't work in that studio nor have they ever worked with Sid Meier nor do they even work in the industry. Yet they mysteriously claim to "know it all" and everything that goes on with a gaming project in a developer's studio. How do they know this? Oh from simply playing the games! WOW great deal!

Warspite2 said:

Hello? An opinion and an insult are two different things.

Click to expand...

I think of myself as an obnoxious, haughty moron who just wants his 15 minutes of fame. There. I insulted myself. Can we move on?

Warspite2 said:

How do they know this? Oh from simply playing the games! WOW great deal!

Click to expand...

You're right. I have no way of knowing that. I could be wrong. Or I could be right!
But making people ask themselves that same question is worth the risk of being wrong!
Imagining the world outside the box is always like that.

Martin Alvito said:

I think that's the main reason many of the better players are still active in the community. There's a good game in Civ 5 that's waiting to come out, but significant and effective balance work will be necessary to produce that result. 1UPT has the potential to be a fantastic innovation for the franchise, but the AI and terrain balance are getting in the way right now.

There's nothing so game-breaking about the present design that it cannot be fixed by modifying some scalars and adding a few mechanics. Eventually the community is going to stumble into those solutions by trial and error even if the devs cannot. The accessibility of CiV is a plus, if it's leveraged properly so that there's actually a deep game hiding under the hood.

Click to expand...

Thank you That's the first time I've seen someone say what I've been feeling all along (and hoping I'm not mistaken). All the fundamental game mechanics (those that are different / new than Civ IV) - hexes, 1UPT, strategic resource system, even global happiness - seem to be well thought out and promise great potential for the game. Even if they don't deliver yet, because the whole picture is marred by balance issues / AI issues.

MoonBase said:

For me, as both a "casual" player and a long-time fan, only after two expansions and three years of Modders plying their trade. And even then, my father (who loved the first Civ but never got into Civ2 due to the map-squares turning into map-diamonds) couldn't get into it.

He's gotten into CiV, though. Now he's talking about looking forward to how the mods are going to change the things he dislikes, which mostly revolve around what we'd all say are the "dumbed down" aspects, like the tech tree and the hidden modifiers. Go figure.

Click to expand...

Good point, I feel a lot like your dad. I played tons of Civ 1 and Civ 2, but Civ IV was overloaded with stuff and tedious. Civ V gave me back the original "how cool is that game!" feeling that the first 2 Civs delivered.

markantony said:

Football Manager 2011 went straight to the top of the all format chart in the UK.

Click to expand...

And in USA, or in China?? I think you must assume that a franchise born in England with the support of the fanbase (because it use the fanbase to realize the DB if you don't know) is strongest in the main country... It is one of the top game in England (and only in England dude) by a lot of time... Compare the english sales with the one in French, Spain or Russia... Then look at the sales of Civ V... You'll be a bit surprised...

demeryt said:

Thank you That's the first time I've seen someone say what I've been feeling all along (and hoping I'm not mistaken). All the fundamental game mechanics (those that are different / new than Civ IV) - hexes, 1UPT, strategic resource system, even global happiness - seem to be well thought out and promise great potential for the game. Even if they don't deliver yet, because the whole picture is marred by balance issues / AI issues.

Click to expand...

Except for 1upt, which doesn't work out with tiles so large.

JLoZeppeli said:

Compare the english sales with the one in French, Spain or Russia... Then look at the sales of Civ V... You'll be a bit surprised...

Click to expand...

Ah, so you have the regional sales of the games! Could you please share them with us? I've been unable to find reliable ones for Civ5.

Using a little brain you can reach the point, otherwise, good for you, life will be easy without

PS I give you an advice, Football Manager, if you don't know, is fan base driven mostly, we are well aware of the players in the community for each country. There are three country where it sells a lot, and that's are Germany, Spain and England, after are Italy and Russia... I'm still a DB helper for Italy to SI...(yes, my statements are biased because i worked to Football Manager DB...)

About the sales numbers, you can see the sales of the boxed Civ on every chart around at least... The same for boxed Footballo Manager 2011... Go and search better, dude.

JLoZeppeli said:

Using a little brain you can reach the point, otherwise, good for you, life will be easy without

PS I give you an advice, Football Manager, if you don't know, is fan base driven mostly, we are well aware of the players in the community for each country. There are three country where it sells a lot, and that's are Germany, Spain and England, after are Italy and Russia... I'm still a DB helper for Italy to SI...(yes, my statements are biased because i worked to Football Manager DB...)

About the sales numbers, you can see the sales of the boxed Civ on every chart around at least... The same for boxed Footballo Manager 2011... Go and search better, dude.

Click to expand...

So your first paragraph is an insult, the second is telling what everyone knows and the third is admitting you don't know what you claimed to know and telling me to go google boxed sales which are not especially related to total sales, which is what I'm interested in.

What a great post.

alpaca said:

Except for 1upt, which doesn't work out with tiles so large.

Click to expand...

It's going to take a lot of work on combat. If that fails, coding optimization should eventually make it possible to play larger maps with fewer than the default number of civs, which would create some elbow room.

Senethro said:

So your first paragraph is an insult, the second is telling what everyone knows and the third is admitting you don't know what you claimed to know and telling me to go google boxed sales which are not especially related to total sales, which is what I'm interested in.

What a great post.

Click to expand...

You miss that i worked for SP, but i'll let go your stubborness where you want take it...

JLoZeppeli said:

You miss that i worked for SP, but i'll let go your stubborness where you want take it...

Click to expand...

Having worked for someone doesn't make you correct, especially when you won't provide an answer, only snark!

Bibor said:

Asimov wasn't a particularly good writer and neither was Tolkien. What matters is that both these writers knew how to create fictional worlds that can become so real in hearts and minds of other people.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's... that's what defines a good writer.
All of your arguments are now invalidated, as your perception of reality has been called highly into question by this statement.

Harvestmoon said:

Wow, that's... that's what defines a good writer.

Click to expand...

When I mean book I mean action, dialogues, storyline, tempo etc. You know, crime/action/drama. Asimov or Toliken read more like a documentary.
If the world of books would be filled exclusively by writers like Tolkien, it would be terribly boring.

Also, maybe I should explain my criteria a bit better: majority of fantasy and SF books (and series and films) are utter garbage and I simply ignore them. Like Salvatore for example. 53 pages describing a single combat sequence. Yawn.

Asimov and Toliken are brilliant writers, but not in my top 10. But not far behind either.