From demigod to klutz

I know it's stating the bleedin' obvious but you have to keep a lot of balls in the air in this game. My nicely humming Mayan empire just got taken out by a swarm of Carthaginian tanks. It turns out pikemen don't have what it takes against them :D. My poor intelligence about the world around me meant I passed up opportunities to squish India and England to my South while Carthage was becoming a monster in the north, consuming the Zulus, Sumerians and whoever else was up there. By the time Carthage demanded tribute, rashly refused, the game was long passed being over.

So:

Empire building - check
Pre-building - nope
Diplomacy - nope
Trading - check
The tech race - nope
Foreign intelligence - nope


Result - crushing defeat in the Middle Ages (me) industrial era (Carthage).
 
I dunno walletta. Maybe you oughtta choose something besides pangea. The AI civs contact each other quickly to race ahead tech-wise. Continents or archipelagos keep them mutually isolated for awhile, giving humanoids the opportunity to discover them first with (suicide) curraghs or galleys.

My closest DG loss occurred on a large (huge?) continental/archipelago map with something like 15 civs. After killing the two other civs on my continent I began amphibious invasions on the closest (and weakest) opponents. In the meantime my naval explorers were the first to discover distant lands, thus providing trade opportunities and lowering tech costs. Wound up way ahead in techs but squandered the advantage by delaying an invasion of England, the second-largest rival and just across a narrow strait from Mongolia, the main bogeyman.

In the end, with 6 or 7 turns to complete the spaceship (it was getting awfully near retirement anyway) Genghis got a cultural victory! Hadn't bothered to check the victory status screen; if I'd done so earlier I had the option of nuking his core cities (had about half a dozen ICBMs ready), then landing an invasion force of 8-10 tank and modern armor armies backed with artillery to finish the job. But I was so blinded by anticipated victory I preferred blissful ignorance to cold-blooded awareness.

Lessons learned: 1) Keep the AI civs separated by water. 2) Never be afraid to exploit a military advantage (advanced units, multiple armies, having a stronger military, etc.). 3) Check the victory status screen to avoid unpleasant surprises ;).
 
I am currently going for a 20k as the Celts, on Regent

I don't build wonders usually, so this is my excuse to build them

I always play the Normal setting on games, can't stand getting a 'bonus' against the computer, or them getting a 'bonus' against me, when it's really just making you or them crapper...anyway

8 civilizations, random everything

Turned out to be 6 or 7 large islands, 2 unoccupied

I'm on the biggest one with Persia - why thank you

Other civs are Inca (crap on islands, good on pangea), Rome (crap in general), Eygpt (awful), Persia (reasonably competent), Korea (average unless expansion goes well), Carthage (legit good on islands, like here) & Maya (lethal in human hands, surprisingly not that good in the AI hands, worst of the Agricultural civs in my opinion when it plays them...)

At 800AD, and Entremont has...

The Pyramids (Rushed, this thing is sickeningly powerful. Golden age was nice too, but hilarious to watch at 2000BC or whenever it was)

The Oracle (Underrated wonder, this. Rarely gets built, but if you're Religious and building Temples, this thing saves you tons of cash. Shame it's so short lasting)

The Hanging Gardens (Genuinely good wonder. Lasts for ages, it's relatively cheap, the the happiness is ace)

The Temple of Artemis (Lol, literally never build this. I don't even build it in 20ks, but...it was either this or the Great Wall at the time)

Great Library (Never have any use for this to honest, I do all my own research. But the culture is nice, and if I'm Scientific, it's nice for a golden age trigger, though I'd sooner use Mausoleum of God know what his name is for that)

Sistine Chapel (currently in progress, 3 turns away from finishing)

And of course, a Temple

Entremont is producing 40 culture per turn, at 800AD

Cathedral, Library and University will be cash rushed in between building Bachs & Shakespeare's

Researching Democracy (never research this) for Shakespeare's Theatre from Free Artistry

Whole tech branch at the bottom is finished. No Saltpeter

No matter, Knights are taking apart Persia's pathetic little Immortals

I believe Alesia has Sun Tzus and Knights Templar, and is building Smith's

These are luxuries you can take when you have a lot of other cities producing offensive units

According to my rough maths, there's 350 turns left, I'll be hitting 50+ per turn, that's 17000 odd Culture, currently have 3500 in total...yep, I'm good to go
 
I dunno walletta. Maybe you oughtta choose something besides pangea. The AI civs contact each other quickly to race ahead tech-wise. Continents or archipelagos keep them mutually isolated for awhile, giving humanoids the opportunity to discover them first with (suicide) curraghs or galleys.

My closest DG loss occurred on a large (huge?) continental/archipelago map with something like 15 civs. After killing the two other civs on my continent I began amphibious invasions on the closest (and weakest) opponents. In the meantime my naval explorers were the first to discover distant lands, thus providing trade opportunities and lowering tech costs. Wound up way ahead in techs but squandered the advantage by delaying an invasion of England, the second-largest rival and just across a narrow strait from Mongolia, the main bogeyman.

In the end, with 6 or 7 turns to complete the spaceship (it was getting awfully near retirement anyway) Genghis got a cultural victory! Hadn't bothered to check the victory status screen; if I'd done so earlier I had the option of nuking his core cities (had about half a dozen ICBMs ready), then landing an invasion force of 8-10 tank and modern armor armies backed with artillery to finish the job. But I was so blinded by anticipated victory I preferred blissful ignorance to cold-blooded awareness.

Lessons learned: 1) Keep the AI civs separated by water. 2) Never be afraid to exploit a military advantage (advanced units, multiple armies, having a stronger military, etc.). 3) Check the victory status screen to avoid unpleasant surprises ;).

The Mongols won by cultural victory? That's hilarious

Islands have a noticeable impact on AI performance for sure

Slows the whole game down, research etc

Does lead to more AI on AI wars, always fun to watch
 
I dunno walletta. Maybe you oughtta choose something besides pangea. The AI civs contact each other quickly to race ahead tech-wise. Continents or archipelagos keep them mutually isolated for awhile, giving humanoids the opportunity to discover them first with (suicide) curraghs or galleys.

My closest DG loss occurred on a large (huge?) continental/archipelago map with something like 15 civs. After killing the two other civs on my continent I began amphibious invasions on the closest (and weakest) opponents. In the meantime my naval explorers were the first to discover distant lands, thus providing trade opportunities and lowering tech costs. Wound up way ahead in techs but squandered the advantage by delaying an invasion of England, the second-largest rival and just across a narrow strait from Mongolia, the main bogeyman.

In the end, with 6 or 7 turns to complete the spaceship (it was getting awfully near retirement anyway) Genghis got a cultural victory! Hadn't bothered to check the victory status screen; if I'd done so earlier I had the option of nuking his core cities (had about half a dozen ICBMs ready), then landing an invasion force of 8-10 tank and modern armor armies backed with artillery to finish the job. But I was so blinded by anticipated victory I preferred blissful ignorance to cold-blooded awareness.

Lessons learned: 1) Keep the AI civs separated by water. 2) Never be afraid to exploit a military advantage (advanced units, multiple armies, having a stronger military, etc.). 3) Check the victory status screen to avoid unpleasant surprises ;).

Yeah but I won on a tiny Pangea so it can be done, albeit that was with a thousand reloads (at least). I do take your point, though, and thank you for it. From your post and mine, it would seem that you just can't take your eye off the ball at any time.
 
Just a thought here, which I wouldn't mind some comment on from some more experienced players...

I'm currently playing a solo game as the Chinese on a Large Continents map. I decided to go for a military win in this game (Dom or Conquest, don't mind), and as such have pushed the English (late Ancient Age, early Middle Age) and the Americans (late Middle Age) off my Continent, and now (early Industrial Age) I'm working on making the Romans history...

Brag follows:
Spoiler :
I'd already had a few skirmishes with the Romans while I was finishing off the English, grabbing a couple of the useless cities they'd planted on my continent's northern coast. Extortion of the Americans' world map revealed that the Romans had a tiny little continent all to themselves, with about 10 cities (note the past tense). I used a second DoW against them as an excuse to begin a half-assed invasion, as a sideshow during the tail-end of the first American campaign, but since I only had Caravels at the time, I couldn't reinforce that small Cav-stack quickly enough, so I broke it off and signed peace.

I'd amassed/upgraded large numbers of Cavs by the time I entered the Industrial Age, which I finally used to sweep across the American lands while I beelined to RepParts for Musket --> Infantry upgrades (there was a huge Jungle between me and the Yanks, so I was pretty certain of getting Rubber somewhere). Then I went for Industry and converted a bunch of Colosseum-prebuilds into Factories.

My Galleons and Frigates had also thoroughly explored the world by now, and discovered that on the other big continent, the Zulus had severely reduced the Aztecs, but left the Indians alone. (I need to check the histograph, but I think the Zulus must also have killed someone else off completely, since there should have been at least 8 Civs on this map -- and I only knew about 3 others until the late Middle Age). I decided that Gandhi would become my friend, and have been assiduously gifting him everything he needs to threaten/ resist the Zulus and keep his people happy.

When I re-DoWed the Americans for the last push, I also signed a MAPT deal with the Romans -- which they were foolish enough to break by signing peace with the Americans, 1T before the deal was due to expire (and less than 5T before the Americans expired as well) :crazyeye: So now I'm at war with Julius, and my citizens aren't even unhappy at me, because the Romans DoW'd us (the 7 Luxes I have access to also help...). Although Lutetia was actually closer to my continent, I took Ravenna first because (1) it had wines and a Harbor and (2) it was on chokepoint-Hill which cut off Lutetia from Rome.

Although I have seen Pikes, a few Muskets, and Horses, it turns out that the Romans have no resources of their own -- but they have been busy building mil-units for the entire game. So I have spent the last couple of turns repelling hordes of Pikes, LBMs, and Spears from Ravenna, using my 3-Cav Armies (I had to leave my 4-unit Armies at home -- for now -- because my Galleons can't carry them!) and eCavs, backed up by a newly-formed 2-Inf Army covering a stack of Arty. The Roman flood has now slowed to a trickle, but unfortunately (for me), they built very loose, and their cultural borders have expanded too far to allow quick overland advances. That said, all their cities -- including Rome -- are vulnerable to naval invasions, and I have enough ships to do it.

Right now it's ~1650 AD, I have ~2600 points and ~50% of the land and population, with the Zulus my nearest rivals at ~2100 points and ~30% land/pop. Last time I looked, I could sell Magnetism to them, so it won't be long before they enter the Industrial Age (if they haven't already) -- but I am already a good way into it, 3T from Electronics, ~6T from finishing a Hoover prebuild, and doing 5T-research (thanks to extensive science-farming in the former England and America).

I also have a ToE prebuild going, with the intention of researching Corp before it finishes and then taking Refining and Steel for free, leaving only Combustion, MassProd and MotorTransp still 'needed' (should take me another ~20-25T). I'll then move the science-slider to 0% and research/buy Nationalism, Commie, AmphWar, etc. So it won't be much longer before I can upgrade all my Galleons to Transports (to move my 4-unit Armies overseas), use my Hydro-boosted Factories to spam out a whole pile of Tanks/ Marines, and clear away the Zulus: the game is already effectively won, and I am now trying to decide whether I really want to grind it out, or just start a new one...


My point is, this game feels like it's been far too easy from beginning to end. All the tricks I've learned from our German Emperor Space Race SG notwithstanding, running over this map has been like playing Regent/Warlord on a Standard-size map.

So I was wondering if a general rule of thumb could be applied that, for any given difficulty level, Large/ Huge maps are generally 'easier' than Standard, and Small/ Tiny maps are similarly more difficult. This would be logical, because the AICivs' starting advantages would be that much more diluted (magnified) on a larger (smaller) map, simply because each city would take up proportionately less (more) of the total land available.

As to how difficult, maybe the equivalent of one difficulty level per map size, e.g. Monarch on Small would be like Emperor on Standard, but Monarch on Tiny would be like Demigod on Standard? And if that's true, then playing DG on a Tiny map would be like playing Sid on Standard!

So -- finally on topic! -- maybe you (Walletta) should try playing DG on a larger map...?
 
Tiny and small worlds are easier for conquest/domination. Research mathematics, something to attack with and something to defend with, then go all military and begin killing and maming your opponents, start with the strongest ones. Make alliances so they don't trade techs, and you might win before anyone has knights or musketmen. No need to continue researching or waste time building city improvements.

After you've taken two AI cities, make peace and get two more in the deal :) then go for the next AI.
 
snip

So -- finally on topic! -- maybe you (Walletta) should try playing DG on a larger map...?
I would but TBH I get a little bored trying to keep up with all the goings on among large numbers of opponents. And as I said, I dislike fiddling about with naval warfare and the caprice of finding out well into the game that you got unlucky with your starting island.

I am currently playing a small Pangea map at Emperor level, for some light relief, again using the OTT Maya. What a breeze! I could not say so before but I can now: emperor level is now well within my comfort zone (for which I blame Lanzelot, mainly). DG still not so much.

In fact, this current game gives rise to a question which is a little off topic. The game is to all intents and purposes over but it will still take some time to achieve one of the victory conditions. I have a serious tech lead, 58% pop (nearest rival has 18%) but only 42% land which means I have to blaze away for hours against outgunned rivals with only one possible outcome. My question is: what do other players do in these cases to pass the time? Is there a fun way of rounding things off, or a super fast way? I have got into the habit of planting huge defensive forests for the fun of it as it's cool to watch an enemy lurch forward one tile at a time while you assemble a reception committee. I suppose it's not obligatory to finish every game. I could just mentally rack up the win and not actually go to the trouble of doing so but that's like not finishing a book. I guess I could declare war on everybody, including opponents who are fighting each other, just for a laugh. Anyone got any better ideas, please fire away.
 
The game is to all intents and purposes over but it will still take some time to achieve one of the victory conditions. I have a serious tech lead, 58% pop (nearest rival has 18%) but only 42% land which means I have to blaze away for hours against outgunned rivals with only one possible outcome. My question is: what do other players do in these cases to pass the time? Is there a fun way of rounding things off, or a super fast way?

Settlers where there's free land, military against the weakest AIs where there's not. To "connect" cities (get the land between them), build temples if you're religious or libraries if you're scientific, use all your treasury to rush them. Join workers into cities.
 
Tiny and small worlds are easier for conquest/domination. Research mathematics, something to attack with and something to defend with, then go all military and begin killing and maming your opponents, start with the strongest ones. Make alliances so they don't trade techs, and you might win before anyone has knights or musketmen. No need to continue researching or waste time building city improvements.
That might work very well for Small (Pangaea) maps, but this is a Large Continents map. It took at least 40 or 50T before I'd confirmed that my Warriors and Curraghs had found all my nearest neighbours on our landmass, never mind the adjacent continents (which I couldn't reliably reach/invade until I got Astro!). My plan was to take out my opponents one at a time, starting with my weakest neighbour(s) in the Ancient Age, owning my Continent by the end of the Middle Age, and capturing neighbouring continents in the Industrial Age. So far, so good...
After you've taken two AI cities, make peace and get two more in the deal :) then go for the next AI.
I've tried extorting cities more than once in this game, but despite being rated strong against them, and having already taken several cities, none of my victims so far have been willing to sign away cities for PTs in the early stages of any of my oscillating wars.

So far I've only managed to 'negotiate' cities from the English, and Liz only became willing to do that after I took London. With my Crusader- and Rider-Armies menacing her new Palace in Hastings, I successfully extorted four of her six remaining cities -- not that it did her much good, when the PT expired 20T later :evil:

Honest Abe didn't have much opportunity to offer cities for peace, because his position went from strong to hopeless over the course of only 5-10T.
Spoiler :
The Americans had Saltpeter, and 2-3 Musketeers in all their cities, and they got MilTrad and did a whole bunch of Knight --> Cav upgrades, just before our PT expired and I began my second push. But I had several Armies out of the English war, and enough Cavs to attack simultaneously at 3 points along their borders (and later Inf and Arty, plus the rail links to bring them in fast). Houston, Seattle (SisChap) and Atlanta (JSBachs) fell in quick succession, giving me clear shots at both New York and Washington (SunTzu).

Since I hadn't built any Temples, and only a couple of military Wonders, American culture was strong compared to the Chinese, so while hostilites were ongoing I didn't bother trying to hold their core cities with more than a single token defender. Seattle and Atlanta were retaken or flipped back several times while I gutted the rest of the American core, but a Cav-Army stationed between the two cities could take either of them back on the next turn.

I used my other 3 Armies to punch straight through the middle to Washington as fast as possible, and to march on their southern cities. Once I'd done that, SunTzu + Leo's (in Beijing) + a healthy treasury => my forces became unstoppable. And since the Americans' 2 Saltpeters were north of their core, after Washington fell, their southern cities (which had no Harbors) could no longer reinforce themselves with anything better than Pikes (I didn't give them long enough to build Knights as well).
So that war was over quickly, maybe 25T start to finish -- mostly without the benefit of rails to the front.

In the current war, the Romans have lost two cities, and appear to have lost the bulk of their available military over the course of about 5T, but despite Caesar asking for peace terms once already, he wouldn't offer me any other cities, only the contents of his treasury. But I don't need gold, I want land...
 
Settlers where there's free land, military against the weakest AIs where there's not. To "connect" cities (get the land between them), build temples if you're religious or libraries if you're scientific, use all your treasury to rush them. Join workers into cities.
THis is basically what I do but it just takes a while and is a little tedious. There should be an 'adjudicate' button IMO.
 
THis is basically what I do but it just takes a while and is a little tedious. There should be an 'adjudicate' button IMO.
There's always the 'retire' option. If you're ahead on points when you push that button, I think it counts as a win, but I'm not sure (it certainly counts as a loss if you push it when you're behind though!). If I knew for sure I'd get the win on my game, I think I'd do it...
 
There's always the 'retire' option. If you're ahead on points when you push that button, I think it counts as a win, but I'm not sure (it certainly counts as a loss if you push it when you're behind though!). If I knew for sure I'd get the win on my game, I think I'd do it...

Oh really, I never knew. Might try that. Thanks.
 
Oh really, I never knew. Might try that. Thanks.
No, don't! I was wrong!

I just tried it in my Chinese game, and despite being ranked no.1 on Score (>2800 vs. the Zulus' ~2300, with the Americans 3rd at about 1400, and the Romans, Indians and Aztecs all at ~1000), wielding about 70% of the World-power rating, and owning 42%/59% of the land/pop (Zulus: 27%/29%), the game was still recorded as a 'Loss (Rank)' on my HoF -- even though History will remember me as 'Mao the Great' :confused:

So I guess I'll have to grind it out after all... *sigh*

Also, I take back what I said about Monarch being too easy on a Large map. I downloaded the 4000 BC save from a thread on CFC, and whoever set it up (can't remember -- Theov?) fiddled with the starting settings, and there were only ever 7 Civs in total. So I didn't face nearly as much competition as I should have on this map. I do remember thinking that the first 50T seemed a little too quiet, but I don't habitually play Large maps and didn't know exactly what to expect.
 
THis is basically what I do but it just takes a while and is a little tedious. There should be an 'adjudicate' button IMO.

66% land and 66% population is too much and too simplified. The programmers couldn't make it 50%/50% in the case where there's two large civs fightning, and instead of doing a much more realistic calculation they just upped it to 66%.

I rarely finish my games because you know when you've won long before the game realizes it.
 
No, don't! I was wrong!

I just tried it in my Chinese game, and despite being ranked no.1 on Score (>2800 vs. the Zulus' ~2300, with the Americans 3rd at about 1400, and the Romans, Indians and Aztecs all at ~1000), wielding about 70% of the World-power rating, and owning 42%/59% of the land/pop (Zulus: 27%/29%), the game was still recorded as a 'Loss (Rank)' on my HoF -- even though History will remember me as 'Mao the Great' :confused:

So I guess I'll have to grind it out after all... *sigh*

Also, I take back what I said about Monarch being too easy on a Large map. I downloaded the 4000 BC save from a thread on CFC, and whoever set it up (can't remember -- Theov?) fiddled with the starting settings, and there were only ever 7 Civs in total. So I didn't face nearly as much competition as I should have on this map. I do remember thinking that the first 50T seemed a little too quiet, but I don't habitually play Large maps and didn't know exactly what to expect.
LOL. I was going to save it first but now I know better. Not sure I have the strength of character to award myself a win, per Ahman. I still say there should be an adjudication button or, better yet, a 24/7 fully staffed, volunteer adjudication committee here :D.
 
Grinding out games is well annoying, when going domination but what can you do?

The chase is better than the catch innit

Guess you could either play smaller maps for quicker wins, or go for super fast space race/cultural victory on normal stuff
 
So I was wondering if a general rule of thumb could be applied that, for any given difficulty level, Large/ Huge maps are generally 'easier' than Standard, and Small/ Tiny maps are similarly more difficult. This would be logical, because the AICivs' starting advantages would be that much more diluted (magnified) on a larger (smaller) map, simply because each city would take up proportionately less (more) of the total land available.

I think that's a valid observation. But as to quantifying that effect, I have no idea. Probably not "one map size == one difficulty level". It must be less. Perhaps like "2-3 map sizes == one difficulty level". However, it also depends on other factors, like the quality of the human and the AI start position. E.g. if the human starts with 2 cows and 2 luxuries next to the capital, while the AI has average start positions, it may well amount to an entire difficulty level!

I think the underlying reasons for this effect are twofold:
  • If the distance between two nations is larger, the AI cannot as easily use it's extra start units to overrun the human before he had a chance to build some defenses. I remember a recent Deity game, where the Egyptians started about 15 tiles away from my capital. Two stacks with a total of 10-12 warriors entered my territory, declared war and captured both my towns at a time, when I had build only 2-3 warriors, and it was immediately "game over". On a large map, something like this cannot happen. There is enough time to set up a decent defense, before the first large AI forces can arrive at our border, and consequently the chance of surviving that critical early phase is much higher.
  • The human player is usually better at improving his land and making the most out of the available resources. So when the human player gets enough time to set up a decent core undisturbedly, he'll be able to compensate for the AI bonus. On a large map this is not difficult, while on a small map the human player may get boxed in way before he had a chance to claim enough territory for a good core.
 
I think that's a valid observation. But as to quantifying that effect, I have no idea. Probably not "one map size == one difficulty level". It must be less. Perhaps like "2-3 map sizes == one difficulty level". However, it also depends on other factors, like the quality of the human and the AI start position. E.g. if the human starts with 2 cows and 2 luxuries next to the capital, while the AI has average start positions, it may well amount to an entire difficulty level!

I think the underlying reasons for this effect are twofold:
  • If the distance between two nations is larger, the AI cannot as easily use it's extra start units to overrun the human before he had a chance to build some defenses. I remember a recent Deity game, where the Egyptians started about 15 tiles away from my capital. Two stacks with a total of 10-12 warriors entered my territory, declared war and captured both my towns at a time, when I had build only 2-3 warriors, and it was immediately "game over". On a large map, something like this cannot happen. There is enough time to set up a decent defense, before the first large AI forces can arrive at our border, and consequently the chance of surviving that critical early phase is much higher.
  • The human player is usually better at improving his land and making the most out of the available resources. So when the human player gets enough time to set up a decent core undisturbedly, he'll be able to compensate for the AI bonus. On a large map this is not difficult, while on a small map the human player may get boxed in way before he had a chance to claim enough territory for a good core.

Is the ratio of Civs to land not the same whether you play on tiny or huge (or anything in-between) so long as you choose the same ocean/land ratio?

An advantage (at least, I think it's an advantage) of playing on small or tiny maps is that there is a much better chance of getting a useful wonder or two given there is the same number to go around.
 
Grinding out games is well annoying, when going domination but what can you do?

The chase is better than the catch innit

Guess you could either play smaller maps for quicker wins, or go for super fast space race/cultural victory on normal stuff

I am gonna try your useful-looking suggestion of playing for cultural win with a cultural (i.e. religious) Civ. Which trait goes best with religious do you think? Agricultural is probably pretty awesome.

Btw. I see what you mean about the Maya being a bit over the top. They are awesomely powerful. A good Civ to practise with at the DG level IMO.
 

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