SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

IMO - site B looks like the best blocking city site. It seals off a lot of territory for us, and is not completely right on Hammy's doorstep. I'm not sure about the maintenance cost, but it would have an instant trade route via the river, correct? (Maybe that requires Sailing). I would not object to grabbing the gold site first either (agree with 1E of A if no seafood).

Regardless, I agree with sending the axe up there to scout around.

Good job. If we settle site A, how long will it be before we can settle site B?

ChrisShaffer said:

Good job. If we settle site A, how long will it be before we can settle site B?

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If I've done things correctly, T72, using a settler from Drona. Here's what I did for the save below:

• T61--We'd like to get PH in 2 turns so we can start building the Oracle.
  Move western warrior to bananas to fully fogbust the coast.
  [Edit: Move northern axe along the coast to look for seafood.]
  3 FWs move to forests near Bolly to start chopping on the same turn--be careful that each FW can do that--ungroup the 2 northern ones--the one on the road goes to the forest SW of Bolly.
  In the real game, the pigs worker finishes the pasture. In the test, he sits for a turn.
  In the real game, Bolly and Drona work the obvious tiles. In the test, to make it match the real, have Bolly switch from the FP farm to the fake copper mine for one turn (giving +6 hammers and -4F). Drona should switch from the corn to the fake desert mine for one turn, and then change to a citizen for the next turn--that gets +4H (should be +3 but I'm lazy) and -10 F.
• T62--Bolly now matches reality. Switch from the fake copper mine to the real GH mine(sorry--meant flood plain farm) (and don't let the city manger use the fake mine again when pop grows). Switch Drona's fake desert mine to a citizen for one turn.
  FW on pigs move 2E and start road. Other FWs continue chops (2/3).
  Adjust the research slider to finish Writing Priesthood--around 60%.
• T63--PH --> Writing. Set research to 0% to build up gold.
  Revolt to OrgRel and switch Bolly from settler to Oracle. 3 chops come in. Bolly should grow next turn. Drona can work its "real" tiles again.
• T64--Drona finishes barracks, starts settler. Grows to pop 4.
  Reset research to 100% (and check every turn that we have a little slop to finish by T68).
  The 2 FWs N of Bolly move to the forest GH 2S of the gold.
  The other FW SW of Bolly moves just south of them (staying within culture borders to save cost). He can start a mine, but cancel it.
  The last FW (#2 in the test game) moves to 2W of Drona, starts mine, cancels.
  At this point we can just let Bolly finish the Oracle in 4 turns (T68) at the same time as Writing. Or we can follow the rest of my plan to whip a settler and settle by the northern gold on T67.
• T65--The 2 northern FWs build a road. The waiting FW moves to the city site (1E of "A") and starts a chop, then cancels.
  Drona FW moves NE and starts a chop.
  Change Bolly from Oracle to settler and do a 2-whip. Make sure this will not complete the Oracle! In my test game it only came up 1 hammer short on T67!
• T66--Northern FW moves to gold, starts road.
  Other 2 FWs moves NW and finish chop, giving 8 hammers to Delhi.
  Settler moves toward city site but stays inside Bolly's culture to avoid costs--he can't settle this turn anyway.
  Continue building the Oracle. It's here I saw that it would only be 1 hammer short of finishing on T67. You can adjust Bolly's tiles if there's a problem.
• T67--Settler founds Bombay. One FW finishes road, other 2 start gold mine (which takes 4 worker-turns--I don't see how to finish it this turn). We're running low on gold at this point but you can set the research slider high enough to finish Writing.
  Drona FW finishes chop toward settler.
• T68--Writing and Oracle done, choose Theology.
  Bolly to pop 4.
  We can 2-whip a settler in Drona now. Using the 3 FWs by Bombay we can road all the way up to the site SE of the wheat and have Drona's settler settle there on T72.

Yup - I agree. Not sure if it was staying in Slavery, or the actual maint was higher, or I mis-microed in bolly. I will try with the new test save. Is it just one turn on the new tiles to get them back in sync?
EDIT: Cross-post again. Let me take a look through your notes.

Updated to T68
OK - Played around a bit. I think if we use all 4 workers we can get the gold mine on the same turn as Bombay is founded. here is the save. I believe I followed directions on the new tiles. Let me test again and post the details.

EDIT: test moves.
Test Game Turns to T66

T61 - Settler:19/100 Gold:5 PH: 0/93
Axe, Sheep FW do nothing
Res 100% (-5) PH
Warrior to bananas
FW 1NW Bolly to 1SW Bolly chop
FWs on Axe: 1 to 1SE Bolly Chop, 1 to 2N Bolly chop

T62 - Settler:38/100 Gold:0 PH: 68/93
Res to finish PH 70%
FW on Sheep to 1NW Axe
Bolly Fake tile to FP (this is better than GH for settler)
Drona Fake tile to Citizen
Axe do nothing unless FW in danger of barb (else move onto worker -1gpt)

T63 - Settler:55/100 Gold:5 WR: 0/187
PH in Res 0% Writing
FW 1NW Axe Road
Drona Citizen to GRF (1gpt + 3F)
Switch to Org Rel
Switch to Oracle (all chops complete into Oracle with Org Rel!!)
Swap FP to GH in Bolly
Axe do nothing unless FW in danger of barb (else move onto worker -1gpt)

T64 - Oracle:91/150 Gold:27 WR: 5/187
Res 100%
Drona - Settler (We can whip an Axe if needed)
FW finishes road NW of Axe
Swap to Bolly to Settler and 2-pop whip
FW 1SE of Bolly to settle site
FW 2N of Bolly to 1NW Axe
FW 1SW Bolly to Axe

T65 - Oracle:91/150 Gold:17 WR: 59/187
Res 100% Writing
FW 1SW of gold - chop
2 FW to 1SW gold - chop 8 hammers to Delhi
FW to gold

T66 - Oracle:137/150 Gold:6 WR: 137/187
Res 100%
Found Bombay build Monument
FW on gold - mine
3FW in Bombay to gold - mine - gold in

T67 - Oracle:145/150 Gold:2 WR: 168/187
Res 70% to finish Writing
3FW to 1N Bombay chop
1FW to 1NW Bombay

T68
Oracle and Writing in - Pick Theo
Will Stop here

To be safe, I'd suggest recording Bolly's food and hammers and our completed beakers and remaining gold every turn of the test game so you can compare when playing the real game, but I believe your plan will work. Settling on T66 and getting the gold mine right away would be sweet! (and give us more margin on the gold holding out for Writing). I held off on whipping the settler to maximize the hammers into the Oracle, but we don't actually need that many so doing it one turn earlier looks like a good idea.

I'm commenting before seeing your final plan, but I'd recommend never using anything other than 0 or 100% research to avoid roundoff waste (except for the last turn before completing a tech if you need to squeeze it out on time). It would also be good to have Drona build that settler so we can grab the wheat site ASAP (probably T73 with your plan)--I see you're building an axe instead. I understanding wanting to have a little more military presence over there, though. Do other people have opinions on how far to trust Japan vs how fast we need to secure land from Hammy?

[Edit: In the real game we're 4 beakers ahead of what the test game shows, so we have a little slack there.]

[Edit2: When chopping the forest on the settling site, note that the hammers go to Delhi, not Bolly.]

Ok - All changes are in. Plenty of both beakers and hammers at the end. I think Oracle could even be 1pop whipped a turn earlier!! Great find on the triple chop into the Oracle with OR! This is a big win.
Things that could go wrong: Barb problems to the north. Someone beats us to Oracle. Toku attacks. I am mixed on the settler v Axe. It looks like an Axe can be whipped with 2 so that is some comfort if some spears come down. Fortunately no chariots.
You're right on the chop - to Delhi alas.
If you want me to play need to know in the next hour or so. Otherwise can hand off. I am out until Thurs but can post. If handing off, be careful on the governors. I think I set to focus on gold, to prevent moving off the good tiles in Drona and Delhi.

Green from me, SH. Go get us the Oracle.

Green. I'd rather have a settler than an axe.

Sorry, was out for awhile. Green from me. I'd prefer a settler in Drona, but maybe you could put a few hammers into an axe before that--enough to 1-pop whip in an emergency. Good luck! And don't hesitate to stop if you're not sure what to do if something unexpected comes up.

Ok - Playing now. Will update shortly.

Went: Completely as planned. Keep an eye on Toku. Added an Axe to Osaka.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1560 BC to 1280 BC:


Autolog


Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Unusual_Suspects_SG015_BC1280_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Nice work, SH! I'll try to update the test game tomorrow. I look forward to REXing. Now, who's up for the next set?

Great job, SH! Both you and Xcalibrator did a fantastic job with the planning and testing.

Woo hoo!

Drona is a great location for the religion - more culture to prevent Toku from taking back the corn.

I concur that it was a great effort by all you guys involved in the testing/planning. Nice work... we acomplished an important goal. Now... what is the next goal?

ChrisShaffer said:

Woo hoo!

Drona is a great location for the religion - more culture to prevent Toku from taking back the corn.

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Spread of Hinduism would have been better there. If we have the chance, a hindu mission for that purpose would be useful. Christianity does not give culture when we run Hinduism. Temple and monastary do, though, and we can build the temple as soon as practical. With OR, monastaries are not needed yet. At present, Drona is the best site for a GP Farm, and if we put a shrine there its going to mess up GA pool.

Drona would be a better cottage legend, though. That, plus Bolly. Maybe 2s from the copper for the third.

But I don't see a really stellar GP farm. If we farmed Drona, it has 17xs food (before Biology), so maybe 8 artists. It has more production than a GPfarm needs, so it can do double duty. The corn will not be a problem longterm.

I'd like to see what Hammer and Toku's capitols look like, though, before we decide where to farm. Japanese and Babylon capitol cities should be pretty good. Hammergawa's got the GW, so his capitol will give useless GSpies, though.


I guess I just want to point out that in a culture victory, the dot-mapping needs to be done to maximize cottages in legendary cities, and maximize food in the GP Farm. Resources are for secondary cities. Happiness resources will be traded away. The GPFarm can go legend, but then it needs to be really good because it needs to be bombed to legendary, which means a lot more GA.

I should also point out that land-grabbing is kinda pointless here. I count four cities, with room for 3-4 more temple cities secured. One more city in the north is more than adequate, because we will flip Toku's corn city, and we might even want to forcibly remove a GP farm site from someone. So we've REX'd enough, really. One more in the north, and then the expansion pace should not exceed our ability to build the necessary infra and get the techs needed asap. 6 cities by 1AD is fine. So take the R out of REX, is my advice.

If we are going military on somebody, then we will over-build if we REX more, and slow down the pace at which we get the needed techs and infra done.

IOW, I would cancel the settler in Bolly and start the AP there right now. We want Bolly to grow back, anyhow.

Key techs would be: #1 Music (free artist, + Sistines), #2 Liberalism for Nationalism (Hermitage, Free Speech). #3 Religion-granting techs (CoL + Philo), and Paper for USankore, maybe. Monarchy for interim happiness. Drama for Globe(in GPFarm). Banking is useful for Mercantilism which will make all the Toku's like us (and give a free artist in every city).

I'd use the free Christian missionary to spread to Bolly. No point waiting.

So lets remember that we are on a culture-mission, and we don't need to land-grab. We should build enough military to discourage the Tokus, and to eventually cripple them for good.

BTW: if Hammer demands our gold (or anything else), we should give it to him.

Also, it does appear to be a somewhat congested map, since we are soon to be the largest land-owners.

Fishing is problematical. If we want to commit to the culture VC blindly (and we sort of already have) then further exploration can wait. Pottery -> CoL ->? maybe is better. Granaries and cottages need to get going.

OTOH, if we manage to get the AP, then the religion option is maybe still on the table, and we'd like to be able to know what it would take. So fishing exploration is good for that purpose. But as you see, the optimum paths for even compatible VC's like AP and culture start to deviate a little. All in on the culture VC for now makes sense, imo. Religion is still a longshot, and won't be hurt so much by what we do for culture anyhow.

We should also discuss the merits of AP Diplo versus Culture as well. I think there may be some options going the AP path.

SteelHorse said:

We should also discuss the merits of AP Diplo versus Culture as well. I think there may be some options going the AP path.

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The merits are that if we can get an AP victory, we can beat a culture victory by at least half a millenium.

Its generally do-able under most normal circumstances. Need to contact all civs fast, though, and get at least one, better with two, to Friendly. Optics for moving missionaries thru closed borders looks like it would be very useful on this map.

AP VC benefits from a really fast early tech rate, and late tech rate does not matter at all. So I would advise against over-rexing even if we are thinking more about AP VC.

Can someone post screenshots of our cities? If not, I can do it tonight. How many hammers have we invested in the Bollywood settler?