My Argument for FIN as Top Tier Trait

blitzkrieg1980 said:

I actually find some of the non-FIN leaders to be top-tier such as Mehmed ,Suleiman, Rameses, or Huayana.

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HC is FIN. Between Vanilla and BtS, they switched his other trait from AGG to IND.

Lennier said:

HC is FIN. Between Vanilla and BtS, they switched his other trait from AGG to IND.

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Bah! Of course. And I only play BTS. I probably wrote it b/c he's one of my fav leaders in the early game. Slip of the tongue... or typing hand?

fin isn't too shabby even with specialist-focused strategies. i've made phi and fin work together on lizzie quite well... get your 2 scientists with a library (and great library, maybe) and you have everything you need to get academies early on, and trade routes + useful econ files later.

i like financial when i have plantation resources too, since more likely than not i'm working those tiles.

i didn't know financial was considered anything other than top tier though.

Fin boosts cottages well, but I don't care much about its water boosting ability. I find water tiles in Civ 4 to be frustratingly weak. In Civ 2 and 3 water actually gave you more commerce (but fewer hammers) than you'd get on land. In Civ 4 water is horrible. I groan and sometimes re-roll on coastal starts, I really hate peninsula starts, I hate them so much. The only thing that can save a water heavy start is the great lighthouse and colossus, both combined, and you obviously can't gaurantee you'll get those.

This is exactly my point, though. Water tiles are only worth 2 with non-FIN leaders and sometimes, even that is necessary to keep very early tech rate moving. On higher levels, you may need to supplement with water tiles to get to those crucial early techs faster. Additionally, if you do have a coastal start (which often comes with multiple seafood tiles), working 2 FIN coastal seafood gives the same commerce output as a fully developed riverside town.

It is exactly because water tiles are so much weaker in Civ4 that FIN makes them so much better. I rarely re-roll starts and try to play what was given. Coastal starts usually give good food which is the most important thing so having a 50% increase in the output of that food is nothing to sneeze at.

drewisfat said:

I think SPI is at the bottom of the tier consisting of CRE/EXP/CHA.

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It always surprises me to see players rate expansive as a poor. I consider it one of the best, if not the best trait in the game. It's not even situational! Always amazing! Expansive deserves a thread like this -- not financial.


Financial is good, but suffers from being more situational than traits like EXP/PHI, which is why I'll never consider it the best. It scales very well with a big developed (cottaged) empire, but on the other hand does much less for a small undeveloped one which is when you can use traits to eek out an opening.

You can point out the immediate advantage in using FIN cottages on a river, but then again if you have a river to cottage you're in a great position regardless. Simplified: a "win more" trait.

EXP loses much value if you cannot get your first worker quicker (no 3H tile, no 2h tile settle and so on). Granaries cheaper are great, but 1 chop can also do that often.
Imo no contest for Phi or Ind, their bonuses cannot be made up for so easily.

On maps like Pangea where wars can easily happen or be planned, CHA often is underrated.

Cheaper granaries can not be overstated.

And the +2 health is consistently overlooked. On higher difficulties it can mean selling off extra health resource(s) which you otherwise wouldn't for gold or it's a free population point in your bureaucracy capital (and naturally it helps every other city as well). Health is always appreciated.

EXP has my vote. I've always touted it as my personal favorite trait and it is indeed underrated, despite what My says . Yeah, you can put a chop into a Gran but the thing is you don't have to use that chop for a Gran and it can be whipped whenever it is optimal - after one turn if that works best. Great point on trading health resources Rust...not to mention gifting them away early on to get diplo going.

SPI and CHA are very good traits too.

Rusten said:

And the +2 health is consistently overlooked. On higher difficulties it can mean selling off extra health resource(s) which you otherwise wouldn't for gold or it's a free population point in your bureaucracy capital (and naturally it helps every other city as well). Health is always appreciated.

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This is a great argument for EXP. Though, I'm not sure why you think many players don't value EXP. I usually see it pretty high up on trait favorites for the very reasons you state.

To play devil's advocate, the bonus to workers is pretty meager in early game when you think about it (if you don't have 4 , you don't even get a bonus at all). And though they are possibly one of the most important buildings in the game, granaries are fairly cheap and can easily be chop/whip early on.

PHI gives double production to Universities which is a very expensive building and required for Oxford (most games have a huge benefit from Oxford, though admittedly not all). As for the FIN argument, it isn't entirely situational although the strength of the benefit is. It is extremely rare that you won't be able to benefit at all from FIN in the early game (where every single point is clutch). Additionally, as the game carries on, 2 becomes less important as you gain access to more resources and faster workers/fast granaries don't really matter much when you are mid-to-late game. However, FIN provides the same level of benefit throughout the game and, as has been said, when you have conquered and have a larger empire with more cottages, the benefit is even more pronounced.

Lymo i like Exp, but i would not contest Ind or Phi :b
Great support trait but among the best..well not for me at least

blitzkrieg1980 said:

To play devil's advocate, the bonus to workers is pretty meager in early game when you think about it (if you don't have 4 , you don't even get a bonus at all). And though they are possibly one of the most important buildings in the game, granaries are fairly cheap and can easily be chop/whip early on.

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I don't really consider the bonus to the first worker much in my analysis of expansive as it's fairly rare. The main benefit of the +25% comes from whipping the workers, or building them in trash/filler cities with no food surplus. But even so this is not the main draw of the trait.

Granaries are not cheap! If you think they're cheap you're probably building them too late into the game! You want them as early as possible, but 60 hammers is a big investment early in the game.
Easily chop/whip? You ideally want these on size 1 before you've even grown to size 2 in your secondary cities! If you need to whip it you've already missed out!

PHI gives double production to Universities which is a very expensive building and required for Oxford (most games have a huge benefit from Oxford, though admittedly not all). As for the FIN argument, it isn't entirely situational although the strength of the benefit is. It is extremely rare that you won't be able to benefit at all from FIN in the early game (where every single point is clutch). Additionally, as the game carries on, 2 becomes less important as you gain access to more resources and faster workers/fast granaries don't really matter much when you are mid-to-late game. However, FIN provides the same level of benefit throughout the game and, as has been said, when you have conquered and have a larger empire with more cottages, the benefit is even more pronounced.

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Late in the game traits in general become less important.
There are plenty of games where you get very little out of financial early on.
Hammers gained are just as clutch as commerce gained.

Yeps and Ind + Phi are all game traits, early and late.
Granaries are great, but the awesome early wonders are game winners (Ind) and so are more great peoples. And they have more to offer like cheap forges, fail gold, easy Ox..
i cannot compare that with saving 30h on granaries, that's too much difference (and i really like Exp). But Fin..yep that's around Expansive level.

P.S. 60h granaries are easy sorry, early too.
You only need BW.

Fippy said:

P.S. 60h granaries are easy sorry, early too.
You only need BW.

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Ok, that settles that then.

Yeah, 60 isn't really a lot even very early. It's equivalent to 1 war elephant. And I rarely get granaries before the city grows. Work high food tile while building granary. 1 chop, 1 pop whip and ready to go. If I'm feeling picky, I'll try to time it so the remaining food is just about at 50% when the granary whips out (to maximize the food storage).

If you think they're cheap you're probably building them too late into the game!

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If I'm CRE or have SH, granary is usually my first build in new cities (situation dependent of course). If not CRE or SH, granary is usually the 2nd build in my new cities. I've been playing far too long to put off granaries unless food is extremely abundant, which it sometimes is. If you have multiple food resources in multiple cities, granaries are of less importance.

Hammers gained are just as clutch as commerce gained.

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Agreed. But as I've said before, because of the bonus , my early econ city can allocate less citizens to cottages for the same commercial output.

Again, I'm not saying that EXP isn't great for its cheap granaries, just that it's not a spectacular trait on the whole. PHI is probably my #1 tied with SPI although I may find SPI less appealing when I move up to Immortal

Fippy said:

Lymo i like Exp, but i would not contest Ind or Phi :b
Great support trait but among the best..well not for me at least

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Oh..I don't question that IND/Phil are the best traits. I just like to advocate for EXP as I do think it is generally underrated.

If you have multiple food resources in multiple cities, granaries are of less importance.

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ha..that is just simply not true. you are missing the point of granaries if you think that way

30H vs 60H Granaries is like comparing night and day. The difference is huge, as long as you utilize 1-pop whips or chops @size 1 before 11F.

Anyway, the order of traits goes:

1. Philosophical/Industrious
2. Expansive/Financial/Creative
3. Charismatic
4. Organized
5. Imperialistic
6. Aggressive/Protective

Unusual situations will change the position of some traits, e.g. Protective is much better in a warmonger sandwich, Creative is much weaker in isolation.

edit: I would say IMO, but my opinion is always right.

Well i guess my point mainly was, 1-2 quicker pop cos of the cheaper granaries cannot make up for other traits benefits alone

I also struggle seeing how that beats CHA i.e. so you would trade stronger units for cheaper granaries? Hmm..
Extra happy >>> extra health as well.
Missing happy cap can make certain maps much more difficult, it's even questionable if the cheaper granaries help you much in this case.
Rating Exp above Cha would not cross my mind too.

IDK where you got the impression I was rating EXP as a bad trait....

lymond said:

ha..that is just simply not true. you are missing the point of granaries if you think that way

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Comparatively, the numbers obviously work out in your favor. But you still have to build the granary before getting its benefit and I find that there may be better things to use early on if I have double food. Once happy cap goes up, granary gains in value.