New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

What I think we should definitely have: Stalin as Ind, Hirohito as Imp, Theodora as Cre, Lincoln as Cha, Hitler as Agg, Mao as Org

Any chance for a Phi or Spi leader here?

Edit: Hm, maybe Lincoln could be Phi and we can add Cha/Fin to Franco and Fin/Exp to Ben-Gurion
Also, who could be Pro?

Edit2: Even better if Pol Pot is Phi, Lincoln remains Cha, Franco is Fin, Ben-Gurion is Spi (if not suits him than Pro)
If we go this way still missing protective and expansive, and did not use Kim Jong-il

...Why would Ben-Gurion be financial? Or expansive?
 
No, I dropped fin right away
If you watch, I wrote Spi or Pro in my 2nd edit
And there is a 3rd edit after that, I guess it's better if I post that here too:

Edit3: Alright, I came up with this, but it's far from perfect. If somewhere it's inappropriate, feel free to change it
Base leaders:
Stalin - Nat/Ind
Mao - Nat/Org
Hitler - Nat/Agg
Hirohito - Nat/Imp
Lincoln - Nat/Cha
Ben-Gurion - Nat/Spi - maybe Pro if can't be Spi
Franco - Nat/Fin
Pol Pot - Nat/Phi
Kim Jong-il - Nat/Pro - if Ben-Gurion is Pro we have to change this too
Theodora - Nat/Cre

Other leaders: Probably Suharto and Marcos should be Nationalistic too
Ahmadenijad - Nat/Ind
Mobutu - Nat/Org
Pinochet - ?
Peron - ?
Tito - ?
Suharto - ?
Marcos - Nat/Pro
Hussein - Nat/Imp
Idi Amin - Nat/Cha

We need an Exp somewhere to have all combos, and shouldn't use any combo more than 2 times
 
Let's just stick with the previous traits worked out.
Capo's already said that it doesn't matter if a trait pairing is used multiple times.

I'm willing to say it's better to have an accurate trait pairing rather than limiting the amount of times said pairing is seen.


Also, I have a new name for Nomadic.
"Traditional." Doing things the old, -old- way.
 
I almost want to say Roaming, but that sounds odd. I am going to bed in a minute, so I'll take a more in-depth look at this sometime tomorrow night if I have time, or early in the morning if I get up in time.

I have Ben-Gurion as Ind/Pro, and there was a specific reason I made him like this (I forget why exactly), so I'd like to at least give him one of these traits.
 
Let's just stick with the previous traits worked out.
Capo's already said that it doesn't matter if a trait pairing is used multiple times.

I'm willing to say it's better to have an accurate trait pairing rather than limiting the amount of times said pairing is seen.


Also, I have a new name for Nomadic.
"Traditional." Doing things the old, -old- way.

I sticked mostly to those you suggested
Still, I would like to see all the traits combos. And all the trait combos fairly evenly spread wherever it's possible.
If you don't like something I suggested just post it. I don't want any inaccurate traits either
 
I almost want to say Roaming, but that sounds odd. I am going to bed in a minute, so I'll take a more in-depth look at this sometime tomorrow night if I have time, or early in the morning if I get up in time.

I have Ben-Gurion as Ind/Pro, and there was a specific reason I made him like this (I forget why exactly), so I'd like to at least give him one of these traits.

No problem
Then Ben-Gurion will be Nat/Pro, Kim will be Nat/Org, and Mao will be Nat/Exp if it's fine by you


Another possible Nationalistic: Ho Chi Minh
Thoughts on that?
Also TAdF, why did you suggested Phi for Pol Pot? I can't really figure it out...
 
No, I dropped fin right away
If you watch, I wrote Spi or Pro in my 2nd edit
And there is a 3rd edit after that, I guess it's better if I post that here too:

Edit3: Alright, I came up with this, but it's far from perfect. If somewhere it's inappropriate, feel free to change it
Base leaders:
Stalin - Nat/Ind
Mao - Nat/Org
Hitler - Nat/Agg
Hirohito - Nat/Imp
Lincoln - Nat/Cha
Ben-Gurion - Nat/Spi - maybe Pro if can't be Spi
Franco - Nat/Fin
Pol Pot - Nat/Phi
Kim Jong-il - Nat/Pro - if Ben-Gurion is Pro we have to change this too
Theodora - Nat/Cre

Other leaders: Probably Suharto and Marcos should be Nationalistic too
Ahmadenijad - Nat/Ind
Mobutu - Nat/Org
Pinochet - ?
Peron - ?
Tito - ?
Suharto - ?
Marcos - Nat/Pro
Hussein - Nat/Imp
Idi Amin - Nat/Cha

We need an Exp somewhere to have all combos, and shouldn't use any combo more than 2 times

No problem
Then Ben-Gurion will be Nat/Pro, Kim will be Nat/Org, and Mao will be Nat/Exp if it's fine by you


Another possible Nationalistic: Ho Chi Minh
Thoughts on that?
Also TAdF, why did you suggested Phi for Pol Pot? I can't really figure it out...

I suggested Phi for Pol Pot because he was extremely philosophy driven.
He wasn't in it to really do anything because make Cambodia better by removing intelligent people. Pretty much all he did -was- that, kill off intelligent Cambodians or Cambodians that merely did something he felt wasn't proper.

Of your suggested traits, I'd change Kim Jong-Il back to Nat/Cre. Ben-Gurion is fine at Nat/Pro.
Mao should stick with Nat/Org.

Again, it doesn't matter if base leaders have shared trait pairings. There'll be multiples as of the modules anyway.

Edit: However, I can at least agree that it'd be nice to at least use each pairing.
For Nat/Spi, Theodora works.
 
Kim Jong-il was Agg/Org, so he will be Nat/Org in my suggestion, and Mao was Exp/Pro, so he should be Nat/Exp. I think both Lincoln and Ho Chi Minh were more Philosophical than Pol Pot, who was closer to a megaloman idiot. I would give him Aggressive

Also, there won't be many leaders with Nationalistic in the modules, so there won't be that much multiple trait combos. Thus I want to aviod them for the main leaders as much as possible.

My list right now:
Stalin: Ind
Theodora: Cre
Mao: Exp
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha

Mussolini: Cha
Ahmadenijad: Pro
Mobutu: Org or Imp
Pinochet: Agg
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: Pro
Marcos: Org
Hussein: Imp
Idi Amin: Agg


Edited a few times, put back Kim to Creative, because it did not matter that much, and TAdF wants that way. Pol Pot and Mao should stay this way though
Edited again
and again :)
Just saw TAdF also edited his post, but I'm not really sure whether Theodora should have Spiritual trait.
Would be very cool as we would have all the combos for the base leaders in my latest list, but I leave that on hold
 
Kim Jong-il was Agg/Org, so he will be Nat/Org in my suggestion, and Mao was Exp/Pro, so he should be Nat/Exp. I think both Lincoln and Ho Chi Minh were more Philosophical than Pol Pot, who was closer to a megaloman idiot. I would give him Aggressive

Also, there won't be many leaders with Nationalistic in the modules, so there won't be that much multiple trait combos. Thus I want to aviod them for the main leaders as much as possible.

My list right now:
Stalin: Ind
Theodora: Cre
Mao: Exp
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha

Mussolini: Cha
Ahmadenijad: Pro
Mobutu: Org
Pinochet: ?
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: ?
Marcos: Pro
Hussein: Imp
Idi Amin: Agg


Edited a few times, put back Kim to Creative, because it did not matter that much, and TAdF wants that way. Pol Pot and Mao should stay this way though

I disagree on Mao. He's more Organized than Expansive, so he should be Nat/Org.
If completely reorganizing, restructuring, and changing your nation from the ground up don't warrant Organized, I don't know what does.
 
I think Mao has a reasonably good and appropriate trait combo with Nat/Exp. And as I said before, he was Exp/Pro till now, through all the playtests and even in Diplomacy I. So I don't really get how would this be bad for him. Also this combo is not used for any other leaders, so I would rather stick with it.

But you only pointed out Mao. This means, you more or less agreed on (or at least can accept) the other ones?
 
I think Mao has a reasonably good and appropriate trait combo with Nat/Exp. And as I said before, he was Exp/Pro till now, through all the playtests and even in Diplomacy I. So I don't really get how would this be bad for him. Also this combo is not used for any other leaders, so I would rather stick with it.

But you only pointed out Mao. This means, you more or less agreed on (or at least can accept) the other ones?

Of the first 11, I'm fine besides Mao.

For the other's you listed...
Ahmadenijad is not Protective. ...in any way, shape, or form. Charismatic or Industrious? Yes.
Mussolini... I'd prefer Ind, but Cha is good too.
Hussein needs Cha. He wasn't imperialistic, and is (in)famous for his obsession with himself, especially in the form of monuments.

Exp/Nat should be saved for someone that Exp works with in a better way.
The non-Nat trait that sums up Mao best is organized, for the reasons I specified. He pretty much sums up Nat/Org.
I don't care that nobody else has that pairing yet, that's not a real reason to throw it in there. If there isn't a Nat/Exp leader, come up with one.
 
I'm fine with changing the other ones, especially as there seem to be some more candidates for Nationalistic trait.
But Ahmadenijad was also Protective previously. Phi and Pro. And I think even you gave him these traits, as these are also from Diplomacy I
Hussein can be Cha, I was also considering that.

Back to Mao: I don't want to add him expansive, just because there are no exp/nat trait combos.
I want to stick to expansive because he had that trait all along, it suits him well (among many other traits, and I'm sure organized is one of them), so why not use when it comes very handy this way as we did't have that combo before?
There is a very big difference between these things.

These are the possible candidates for Nationalistic. I know almoust nothing about some of them, so a few leaders here may be totally out of the question. Which ones do you consider Nationalistic?
Fidel Castro (Cuba), Collins (Ireland), Mongkut (Siam), Andranik (Armenia), Obasanjo (Nigeria), Ali Jinnah (Pakistan), Saakashvili (Georgia), Daar (Somalia), Eyadema (Togo), Chavez (Venezuela)
 
I'm fine with changing the other ones, especially as there seem to be some more candidates for Nationalistic trait.
But Ahmadenijad was also Protective previously. Phi and Pro. And I think even you gave him these traits, as these are also from Diplomacy I
Hussein can be Cha, I was also considering that.

Back to Mao: I don't want to add him expansive, just because there are no exp/nat trait combos.
I want to stick to expansive because he had that trait all along, it suits him well (among many other traits, and I'm sure organized is one of them), so why not use when it comes very handy this way as we did't have that combo before?
There is a very big difference between these things.

These are the possible candidates for Nationalistic. I know almoust nothing about some of them, so a few leaders here may be totally out of the question. Which ones do you consider Nationalistic?
Fidel Castro (Cuba), Collins (Ireland), Mongkut (Siam), Andranik (Armenia), Obasanjo (Nigeria), Ali Jinnah (Pakistan), Saakashvili (Georgia), Daar (Somalia), Eyadema (Togo), Chavez (Venezuela)

First off, even Capo agreed that Mahmoud shouldn't be protective. I pointed it out back in Diplomacy 1, he didn't notice he'd given him that trait. My recommended replacement was Cha/Ind, since he's most well known for two things: His charisma, and the fact that he's really industrialized Iran.

Also Mao originally was Org (Phi/Org to be specific, which makes sense), and that still fits him better than Expansive. He was only changed when Firaxis reorganized the traits when they added new leaders. He REORGANIZED the nation, spent his entire life going through and COMPLETELY REDOING what the nation had become, retooling everything, setting about new plans to completely reshape China. He's Organized.
I'm sorry but there's no way to ignore that. The trait fits him -perfectly.-

Also, of the leaders you suggest at the end, I fully agree with Casto (Charismatic, or -maybe- Protective, though I figure Castro is most well known for his cult of personality. Hell, even many here in the US see him as an extremely charismatic person), Andranik (Not sure for his second trait, I'm open to suggestions), and Chavez (also not sure. I guess either Cha, or maybe Ind for his -attempts- at further industrializing his nation.)
The only one I don't agree with at all is Mongkut. I guess he was -slightly- nationalistic, but I don't think he was nationalistic enough to warrant that being his trait. However, if he -was- made Nationalistic, his secondary should probably be Phi. I originally suggested he be Phi/Cha.
 
I already said in my last post, that I don't mind changing those leaders.
I meant it on Ahmadijenad too, just pointed out he has those traits for a very long time. Now it's clear that he was just protective by mistake, so I agree we should definitely change that

On Mao I'm not arguing about you that Organized is a better trait or Expansive. I can accept Org suits him better. Just saying that Expansive also fits him well, and would be much better for "trait balance". I suppose it's all up to Capo which way he likes more

Also, of the leaders you suggest at the end, I fully agree with Casto (Charismatic, or -maybe- Protective, though I figure Castro is most well known for his cult of personality. Hell, even many here in the US see him as an extremely charismatic person), Andranik (Not sure for his second trait, I'm open to suggestions), and Chavez (also not sure. I guess either Cha, or maybe Ind for his -attempts- at further industrializing his nation.)
The only one I don't agree with at all is Mongkut. I guess he was -slightly- nationalistic, but I don't think he was nationalistic enough to warrant that being his trait. However, if he -was- made Nationalistic, his secondary should probably be Phi. I originally suggested he be Phi/Cha.

Alright, Mongkut won't get Nationalistic. I drop Saakashvili too. I don't even think Capo will include him in Diplomacy.
What about Collins and Ali Jinnah? And the African leaders? I'm not really sure on them

EDIT: Checked the bio of Jinnah. I won't add Nationalistic for him either, at least not in the sence what bonuses we gave to the Nationalistic trait
EDIT2: Daar is out to (he was a too positive figure :)), but Eyadema and Obasanjo is in
 
Seafaring/Enterprising (I'm starting to like Seafaring more again):
  • +1 Movement for all naval units
  • DP of Harbor, Customs House and Dry Dock
  • Free Mobility and Sentry Promotions for Scouts/Explorers
  • +1 Trade Route in every city

2nd and 3rd items can be done in XML. 1st and 4th require Python that I already have.

Nationalistic:
  • +1 Happiness +1 Culture per NW in city built
  • +2 Espionage Points in all cities
  • Double Production Speed of Jail, Mind Control Center, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau
  • Minimal wait times between revolutions

2nd and 3rd can be done in XML. +1 happiness can be done in XML too but will result in a VERY long trait description/tooltip as every single national wonder would be listed. More efficient to do both this and +1 culture in Python. I reckon I can figure out how.

I have absolutely no clue how to do the 4th item.

Nomadic:
  • -50% Maintenence cost from distance from capital
  • Free looting promotion (we'll add it) for melee and mounted units
  • +1 Happiness from Stables OR -25/50% War Weariness OR All units ignore terrain movement costs

Both maintenance and war weariness reduction require a fake building. I have Python for this that is compatible with BUG too. Pillaging as a promotion is pure xml.

I have no idea how to do the movement cost thing.



Do you want any of these in for the next playtest or wait for the one after? Seafaring will be trivial to get ready but the others will require more work. Let me know.
 
Alright, one final update for now:

Stalin: Ind
Theodora: Cre - maybe Spi if it suits her
Mao: Exp - Org suits him little more, but then no nat/exp combo
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha

Mussolini: Imp
Ahmadenijad: Ind
Mobutu: Imp
Pinochet: Agg
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: Pro
Marcos: Org
Hussein: Cha
Idi Amin: Agg
Castro: Cha
Collins: Phi
Andranik: ?
Obasanjo: ?
Eyadema: ?
Chavez: ?
 
Alright, one final update for now:

Stalin: Ind
Theodora: Cre - maybe Spi if it suits her
Mao: Exp - Org suits him little more, but then no nat/exp combo
Hirohito: Imp
Kim Jong-il: Cre
Franco: Fin
Pol Pot: Agg
Ben-Gurion: Pro
Ho Chi Minh: Org
Lincoln: Phi
Hitler: Cha

Mussolini: Imp
Ahmadenijad: Ind
Mobutu: Imp
Pinochet: Agg
Peron: Fin
Tito: Ind
Suharto: Pro
Marcos: Org
Hussein: Cha
Idi Amin: Agg
Castro: Cha
Collins: Phi
Andranik: ?
Obasanjo: ?
Eyadema: ?
Chavez: ?

If you really want a Nat/Exp leader, the pairing probably goes best towards Ivan The Terrible, who I believe is Pro/Exp right now.
So we could make him Nat/Exp, then give Mao the preferred Nat/Org.

That leaves only one unused Nat pairing (ignoring the two new traits): Nat/Spi.
In all honestly, Isabella... it'd work for her. I just don't know if anyone else would agree.
Nat/Spi, to me, seems like a pairing that'd work best on a middle eastern dictator. In fact, if I could invision any possible leader with the traits, I'd probably go for Gaddafi.
However, if I had to give it to a leader we already have, I'd give it to Isabella of Spain or Ayatollah Khomeini (I can't remember Khomeini's traits right now. Spi/Org?)


I'd love to see if we could brainstorm a leader that uses two of the new traits.
Like a Seafaring-Nationalist, a Nomadic-Nationalist, or Seafaring Nomads.
Phoenicia could easily have a Seafaring Nomadic leader. I guess Canute could be Sea/No too.

Also, if the minimal wait time for civics on Nationalistic can't be done, just throw back in the reduced cost of national wonders. Maybe 20% or 15%.
 
Xyth, AFAIK these are the latest suggestions approved by Capo - with options what to do if some parts are not possible or memory-consuming to solve:

Seafaring:
  • +1 Movement for all naval units
  • DPS of Harbor, Customs House and Dry Dock - also add Market later if the trait doesn't seem strong enough in the playtests
  • Free Mobility and Sentry Promotions for Scouts and Explorers
  • +1 Trade Route in every city

Nationalistic:
  • +1 Happiness and +1 Culture per NW in city built - if this is hard to add we can go with reduced cost of NWs (at about 25%)
  • +2 Espionage Points in all cities
  • DPS of Jail, Mind Control Center, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau
  • Minimal wait times between revolutions - it's a small bonus (altough would be cool to have) so only add if it's not too hard or memory-consuming to solve in python
  • Free Loyalty promotion for spies - after spy promotions are added (next playtest?)

Nomadic:
  • -50% Maintenence cost from distance from capital
  • +50-100% gold from pillaging - if we don't add any other free promotion for this trait and add Looting promotion to Diplomacy then can be solved with that too
  • -25% War Weariness
  • We need to figure out a good 4th bonus for Nomadic

Also, changes in original traits:
Protective: we wanted to add increased defence against spies (about 20-25% chance of thwarting rival spies)
Expansive: as Seafaring got Harbors, maybe add Aqueducts and the new Well building for this trait
Aggressive: Seafaring got Drydocks too, so add Stable here
 
If you really want a Nat/Exp leader, the pairing probably goes best towards Ivan The Terrible, who I believe is Pro/Exp right now.
So we could make him Nat/Exp, then give Mao the preferred Nat/Org.

That leaves only one unused Nat pairing (ignoring the two new traits): Nat/Spi.
In all honestly, Isabella... it'd work for her. I just don't know if anyone else would agree.
Nat/Spi, to me, seems like a pairing that'd work best on a middle eastern dictator. In fact, if I could invision any possible leader with the traits, I'd probably go for Gaddafi.
However, if I had to give it to a leader we already have, I'd give it to Isabella of Spain or Ayatollah Khomeini (I can't remember Khomeini's traits right now. Spi/Org?)


I'd love to see if we could brainstorm a leader that uses two of the new traits.
Like a Seafaring-Nationalist, a Nomadic-Nationalist, or Seafaring Nomads.
Phoenicia could easily have a Seafaring Nomadic leader. I guess Canute could be Sea/No too.

Also, if the minimal wait time for civics on Nationalistic can't be done, just throw back in the reduced cost of national wonders. Maybe 20% or 15%.

I'm all for these changes if they are accurate
But are you sure it would be good to make Ivan and/or Isabella Nationalistic? With all the espionage and manipulating flavour we added there I have doubts

Also, for Khomieni: We already have a Nationalistic leader with Ahmadenijad for Iran. I'm not sure having another is a good idea.
If I have to choose I would rather take your previos suggestion instead. Theodora as Nat/Spi and Ivan as Nat/Exp. Mao can be Nat/Org that way.
But again, I'm also not really sure on this one...

For the 3 new traits combined with each other: I don't see any possible leaders for Nat/Sea and Nat/Nom. That's why I suggested to combine Nat only with each of the original traits.
Nom/Sea is certainly possible, we have even more options for this combo. I like both ideas you suggested. We need a second leader for Phoenicia for that, but I absolutely second that :)
 
Jesus H. Christ! You guys have certainly put a lot of posts up overnight. Well I have to get ready to go back to work, hopefully when I get home I'll have some time to sort this out. Very quickly though; Mao has to keep one of his original traits, sorry TAdF. I don't want to change too much, I hardly want to change anything.
 
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