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Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Drendor said:
You said you defeated the Germanic tribes, does that mean that you conquered all their cities except those beyond impassable terrain?

Regarding army composition: Are you using velites? You were only bringing 6 of those to the Thrakian campaign.

I conquered all Germanic cities which can be conquered. That means Augusta Vindelicum, Castra Regina, Vindobona, Vindonissa, Alemannia Superior, Colonia Arippina. The AI would had given me even Alemannia Inferior (surround by Ancestral Forests) for a peace contract, but I didn't take. The cities at the coast can be conquered too. But I stopped the war at the historical borders.

Yes, I use Velites. And I like them. I used a lot against the Germanics and Gauls. But I can't build them anymore. And I have only 12 Velites yet. :(
 
Aion said:
The Germanics ought to be strong, especially in late game, because after all they were the ones that brought the Roman Empire to fall. And also in earlier history the Romans had a lot of trouble with them ("Varus, give my legions back!", remember?). But it should still be possible to conquer the cities on Rhine and Danube.

Yes, but the Romans managed to defeat them until the 5th century. The invasions of the Germanics were thrown out by the Romans in the 3rd century. Only the "Black Forest" area was evacuted by the Romans. Augusta Treverorum was an imperial residence in the 4th century.


In my view the Ptolemains are too strong too.
But Persia is ok. They were as strong as the Romans.


But yes, RFRE is a great mod. But there should be some changes to make it easier to reach the historical borders.
 
These are 88 Praedator, 16 Eques Cataphractus and 11 Bellator Loricatus. :rolleyes:
 

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König Markus: 88 preadators that is pretty tough. And yes I forgot that the velites get unbuildable at your stage.
What has happened to your economy? You´re in a golden age and still your back 119 gold per turn?

In my game its around 26-30 AD and I just sued for peace with Aegypt after having conquered Tyros and Jerusalem. It was a rough battle where I was victorious at last. Now I can finally build the crux Iesi. (sigh of relief)

Time to smack Pontus and then back to Egypt after the 20 turn peace is over.
(i try to honor my deals eventhough everybody hates me).

Dictator Linkowicius
 
Drendor said:
What has happened to your economy? You´re in a golden age and still your back 119 gold per turn?

Oh yes, I can change the rate now. With a rate of 7.3.0 it's plus 66 gold per turn and I don't loose speed at researching.
 
I want to add three things.

1) Why does Augusta Vindelicum, Castra Regina, Vindobona and Vindonissa belong to the Germanics at the beginning of the game?

The Vindelicer were a Celtic tribe. The later Roman cities were orginally in the celtic part of Germany and Austria.
The Germanics settled in Raetia and Noricum not until the 5th century.


2) The Eques Legionarius cannot compete with other heavy cavalleries. It's hard to fight with it until Cataphractus is available.

3) Byzantium should be renamed to "Constantinopolis", not to "Constantinople" as mentioned (Conversion of Constantine). Since all other cities have Latin names.
 
But Persia is ok. They were as strong as the Romans.

Hardly.

Persia was capable of keeping Romans out due to several reasons, but they weren't as strong as the Romans.
 
There had been times where Persia was military as strong as the Romans.

See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_dynasty

Sassanid dynasty was... well, strong, yes. But, the Parthian military was not as strong as the Roman military. Even Sassanid military lacked the organization of a Roman army. Late Roman army, on contrary to a popular believe, was still better than the armies it fought against. Late Roman problems were economical.
 
@Konig Marcus

Thanks for your suggestions.

- Min. research rate is set for all tech, i.e. 12 turns. I can’t change it for some specific tech. 12 is a ‘magic number’ found by IXIRandyIXI, and it has been tested throughout; I won’t change it!
- Same goes with the legio, they are pretty stronger now than they were. I am open to a change tough if the majority think it will be a good move. Someone said: weaken the velites, strengthen the legions. Is that the way to go?
- Constantine’s finance reform, although I can’t remember for sure, were I think deemed quite unsuccessful. If not, a wonder could be added. The hippodrome also could be there. There will be some time before next patch with art and new features is released though!
- Hagio Sofia with minaret. Uh?! I do with what I have :) Ok, I could go do some photoshop soon.
- Barbarian wonders’art is certainly not a priority for me, but I welcome anybody to submit some, with would compel me to release the art patch sooner than I would otherwise. Yes, I am getting lazy :)
- There not hint page. There was a guide in the making, but so many changes were done and it was never updated. Its author is gone for a long time now. If anybody wants to take over, I can send the file.

Ok, now about your problems with Dacia (which underline how much a guiding book is needed!!!)

Dacia was a rising threat starting in the early ACs. The Romans were then busy battling in Germania, but the conquests of these distant lands was made impossible by the Dacian threat. Trajan took them very seriously and invaded Dacia with a huge fully equipped Army before the threat would become too serious. The gold there has had something to do with the attack of course. The conquest wasn’t a piece of cake. We speak here of the IIAC. Now you are in the IIIAC, in the middle of the crisis of the third century. What you have there is the first wave of the barbarian invasions, which will subside eventually. The Migratio wonder is only there for 50 years, or 25 turns. That still a lot of praedatores but it is limited in time. The Germanics, the Goths also get the wonder. That is why Dacia should be terminated before that threat arises. I believe I have already reduced the spawning rate of Praedatores, but again not uploaded the latest biq. It is now one per 4 turns instead of 3. Beware because Germania and Gothia have similar waves of raiders waiting for an opening. The point of the game at this stage is: conquer all you can, secure the border with as much forces as you can, and pray for surviving the onslaught that will come in the 400-500’s. The invasions during the crisis of the third century is just an appetizer really, although just remember that Rome really nearly crumbled during that time, with the Empire of Gauls and Palmyra seceding, and various humongous northern invasions taking place, etc.

You economy is pretty weak, with a GA, you should stack huge amount every turn. Something went awkward in your city development. Ah, I wish I had time to write a guidebook…!

Thanks for highlighting the problem switch some German cities belonging to Celts. I might make some change but I don’t think I will switch too many cities to the Gauls since a stringer Gaul will make Rome more miserable early on.

Eques legionaries can deal well with infantry (thanks to its retreat capacity). Facing other cavalry (which I guess you mean Parthian), it is not that good, yes. Maybe will I boost it a tad?

@TLC

Maybe everyone should just play the ‘junior’ version. And maybe I should rename the junior ‘normal’ and call the normal ‘Caesar’ version or something!
Having a regular save is certainly required in RFRE, but then, I need that for most of Civ games since I am not a very good player.

@TLC, Ciceronian

Any correction for the Latin is warmly welcomed. It has been a long time since a real Latin speaker gave feedback (I am no such folk in any way), and I have added many new entries since.

Germanics will be allied back with the Scythians in next update, no longer with the Goths. I am not sure it will make the game easier, but it will somehow reactivate good ‘d Attila.

@Aion, Drendor

I do not remember if the current public version has already a weakened Aegyptus or not. What is the current spawning rate of the Pyramides Minor for hoplites? If still unchanged, I will need to release a biq update this week. I fully agree in weakening the Ptolemies.

@ Drendor

Good point with the legio socius. I might have to change something there to make the legio more competitive.

All def bonus are indeed cumulative. So a unit in a limes on a hill and behind a river has a nice 100+40+60=200% def bonus. If you have a castrum in range, that will be 225%! That is why building a good border defense is a must for surviving late Germanic invasions (IIIAC and VAC+)

@Taijian

Athens is encouraged to remain neutral. No alliance can be done between Rome and them. This can change, but I prefer keeping them out of as many wars as possible.

@Naziasbandit

Parthia is overpowered, agreed, and I have made many changes through time to reduce their strength. Yet, it shouldn’t be too weak; otherwise it will be overrun by Rome. Carrae would otherwise never happen. I am quite convinced Rome would have needed to mobilize vast parts of the resources of the Empire to beat the Parthians significantly (which they never did), and so must the player.

As for the Sassanids, I think they are fine. Yes, many Roman problems were related to corruption, declining economy, but these are not simple to show in Civ3 terms. Before Heraclius, Rome didn’t success in defeating the Persians. They actually succeeded in invading Palestine and Aegypt!
 
pinktilapia said:
- Same goes with the legio, they are pretty stronger now than they were. I am open to a change tough if the majority think it will be a good move. Someone said: weaken the velites, strengthen the legions. Is that the way to go?

60 -> 120 -> 175 -> 120

Legio Marius should be cheaper. The changes in the recrcuitment system should be reflected in a lower cost. Maybe the pop cost should only be 1 to reflect the much larger pool of candidates? Or just lower the cost from 120 to 105. Hopefully that gives enough boost to get the Romans conquering all that they did!

Other than that I think it's fine. The changes you mentioned coming in the next version should help already by reducing the number of AI units.


pinktilapia said:
You economy is pretty weak, with a GA, you should stack huge amount every turn. Something went awkward in your city development. Ah, I wish I had time to write a guidebook…!

I tend to end up with at least 50k by the time the GA ends, but my conquests are fewer. Sounds like too much city production is required.

The strong Parthia seems to conquer Syria (and sometimes Pontus) in most games. Maybe it's just because most ppl are running behind?


pinktilapia said:
As for the Sassanids, I think they are fine. Yes, many Roman problems were related to corruption, declining economy, but these are not simple to show in Civ3 terms. Before Heraclius, Rome didn’t success in defeating the Persians. They actually succeeded in invading Palestine and Aegypt!

I think you've done a great job of showing the collapse of the Roman economy! Especially painful is when Praetor expires, but also when most of the taxation buildings expiring when Comidus takes over.
 
pinktilapia said:
Maybe everyone should just play the ‘junior’ version. And maybe I should rename the junior ‘normal’ and call the normal ‘Caesar’ version or something!
Having a regular save is certainly required in RFRE, but then, I need that for most of Civ games since I am not a very good player.
Now that sounds like a good idea. I have considered starting a new game with the junior version, but I would feel much more comfortable playing it if it had a less humiliating name :lol: I can't really say if I am a good player or not; normally I play on monarch, but I can't compare my level to other players. Also, the problem with RFRE is that you cannot lose: If I play the epic game with, say, Sumeria and I lose half of my cities to the Maya - so what, that's the way it is! But if I play RFRE and the Carthaginians crush my army, I will never ever be able to continue replaying the Roman history correctly. That's why losing in RFRE is much more frustrating than in other games.
 
pinktilapia said:
Constantine’s finance reform, although I can’t remember for sure, were I think deemed quite unsuccessful. If not, a wonder could be added. The hippodrome also could be there. There will be some time before next patch with art and new features is released though!

I didn't realize that Renovatio Diocletiani + Diocese dicrease corruption and add 50% to the tax income.
I think that represent Diocletian's and Constantine's economical and financial reforms enough.
Just for information: The new gold coin "Solidus" which was introduced by Constantine was the gold coin with the longest use in history. About 1,000 years.

A hippodrome wonder and new pics for Hagia Sophia would be really great.

pinktilapia said:
You economy is pretty weak, with a GA, you should stack huge amount every turn. Something went awkward in your city development. Ah, I wish I had time to write a guidebook…!

I didn't realize that there exits a Golden Age which is started by one of the Limes wonders. So I didn't push the limes wonders. Then it was too late. Praetor, Latifundia, Emporium and Forum went obsolete. With these city improvements I could easily have a rate of 9.1.0.

A guidebook would be very, very great.

pinktilapia said:
Eques legionaries can deal well with infantry (thanks to its retreat capacity). Facing other cavalry (which I guess you mean Parthian), it is not that good, yes. Maybe will I boost it a tad?

One further HP would be great.


pinktilapia said:
Germanics will be allied back with the Scythians in next update, no longer with the Goths. I am not sure it will make the game easier, but it will somehow reactivate good ‘d Attila.

Good idea, because the Scythians need some turns until they reach the Romans borders.

pinktilapia said:
Athens is encouraged to remain neutral. No alliance can be done between Rome and them. This can change, but I prefer keeping them out of as many wars as possible.

I was surprised when I realized it. But now I think that is a good think. In history Athens stayed very long independent.

pinktilapia said:
I do not remember if the current public version has already a weakened Aegyptus or not. What is the current spawning rate of the Pyramides Minor for hoplites? If still unchanged, I will need to release a biq update this week. I fully agree in weakening the Ptolemies.

Why not make Jerusalem independent like the Nabatea? Or give it to the Seleucids?




I love such wonders like Annus Quartorum Imperatorum, Crisis of the Third Century or Opus Imperator-Soldati, because they make the mod realistic.
Wonders like Moenia Aureliani, Limes wonders or Via Ad Orientem represent historic facts or events in great way. Well done!


In the C3C Conquest "Rise of Rome" is a really nice "Fire Catapult".
What do you think about it? Maybe it can be used instead of the current one.
 
primordial stew: I dont think that Marius legions need to be cheaper. You can build hordes of miles socius pre marius reforms and upgrade them into marius legions.

If the Marius legio was to be cheaper I would suggest a cost of 100 shields instead of 105. Its better with even costs on units to make it easier for players to reduce waste.

Regarding economy: The key to nice economy seems to be mercator+latifundi+census in all urbs and trying to get as many cities as possible before lex agraria.
Its also important to build alot of velites since they pack a mean punch in the early game and have no support cost at all.
Getting the gold mines in Spain and Thrakia is also a real boost to economy

pinktilapia: yes, Ptolemy was way too strong. I dont know how to look in the editor for the spawning rate of hoplites but they had at least 100 of them by 2 AD in my game.

Regarding the colosseum: Being forced into civil war to build it is rather harsh, maybe the happy face bonus should be bigger to encourage players to build it.
I tend to be unhistorical (flame me) and not build it, dont know if I will need those happy faces later when the empire degenerates.

I will also not build the second wonder (Antonius reform?) that gives all your cities limited civitas. Instead i build the limited civitas in the cities that need it (not all cities benefit from reaching full citizenship) with raw shield/money power.
I have already given civitas to Athens, Pergamum and Thessaloniki this way. This way you can avoid another civil war..


I have also discovered a killer combo: When you can build the miles auxillaries (7-5-1) and have built the nativity wonder in Rome, start enlisting people into the army. You can ignore the 1 pop/ draft cost when your cities increase 2 pop every time the granary gets full.
You can get alot of drafted troops this way and those units dont have support costs :)
Ok they start only with 2 hp but let them finish off wounded enemies and they will quickly grow into veterans.


Situation in my game: Its around 30 AD. I conquered Petra, nice with a new lux for my empire. Too bad that the corruption in Petra is over 90%, no need to build Via ad orientem since the extra revenue will only be lost in the corruption zink-hole.
May main army (80% of my legions and 5 armies out of 6 are outside the borders of Pontus ready to attack in a few turns. The plan is to redeploy the troops around Jerusalem and conquer the rest of Egypt when the war with Pontus us over.
Too bad though, I got me a little dent in my plans, Germanic tribes have declared war!
My garrisons in Gallia consists mainly of celts,velites and presidiums so this can be intresting.
In the alps there is a city on hills near a lake (Avicendum???). I have moeni and the city is behind river so my defenders get 150% bonus. I hope the barbarians will smash themselves bloody against those walls.
I just upgraded the presidiums to the newer variant with 5 defense so my units will defend at a value of 15, and I have triumph arc.

Maybe I will transfer some troops from the east when Pontus is crushed so that I may raze some Germanic cities with a counterattack?
 
Is triumph really working?

36 AD i build triumph

38 AD i upgrade my troops, enemy attacks, I win but by troops get severly wounded

40 AD My troops are not healed, Enemy attacks again and kills all my wounded units.


I didnt know you could attack a city two turns in a row without the defenders getting healed if they have barracks.....

Is it because I bought the triumph in 36 AD and got it in the city in the beginning of 38 AD ?
 
Drendor said:
primordial stew: I dont think that Marius legions need to be cheaper. You can build hordes of miles socius pre marius reforms and upgrade them into marius legions.

It's a reaction to 2 things: the cost is double the legio, and this happens at a time when Rome still needs to be actively expanding the empire. Reading all the posts it seems that a bit more is needed to fully expand the empire.

An alternative would be to allow the armies to upgrade (if this is even possible) with +1A/+1D (since the legios inside the army can't be upgraded). That will allow those Consular and Scipio Legios to partake in Marius's reforms :)

Drendor said:
Situation in my game: Its around 30 AD. I conquered Petra, nice with a new lux for my empire. Too bad that the corruption in Petra is over 90%, no need to build Via ad orientem since the extra revenue will only be lost in the corruption zink-hole.

The Great Lighthouse eliminates local corruption (as does the port in Carthage), so Petra will be ~30% corruption after you take Alexandria. It is also a super-port, which helps get the troops back to stop the Germanics!
 
@Drendor

No idea for the Triumphus really. It should work fine... when looking in the editor

@P. Stew

I will consider making Marius Legions cheaper. Hannibal spawning in the Alps is certainly a good idea but the thought of having a Punic city there is somehow... a bit disturbing. There would be other problems, such as the Carthaginian sending Hannibal alone in campaign in Germania (poor fella). To ensure the unit is only sent south, it would mean a city in a valley opening to Italy only. Maybe that place could be named after a Cisalpine mountain stronghold, it would make some sense.

I will try hard to put some time in releasing a serious update this Friday :)
 
primordial stew said:
hey Pink, is it possible to make the Hannibal army spawn out of the mountains?
I highly doubt the AI will ever actually send him over to Italy where this menace belongs.

Oh, AI does, if you wait long enough.
Once in my games Carthago and Scythia had war. They fought on my territory. Hannibal was near the Alps. Later I destroyed the damaged Hannibal.
 
pinktilapia said:
I will consider making Marius Legions cheaper.

Ok. I don't know what all the changes are, so maybe it isn't necessary. But if so.. then the pop cost of 1 is probobly the best way to do it. Till now it was only land owners that staffed the legio proper. So having them on campaign would detract some from the economy, which we could say the pop cost of 2 reflects this. Marius opened soldiering up to everyone, so lots of poor people who wouldn't be missed by the economy now staffed the army.

pinktilapia said:
Hannibal spawning in the Alps is certainly a good idea but the thought of having a Punic city there is somehow... a bit disturbing. There would be other problems, such as the Carthaginian sending Hannibal alone in campaign in Germania (poor fella). To ensure the unit is only sent south, it would mean a city in a valley opening to Italy only. Maybe that place could be named after a Cisalpine mountain stronghold, it would make some sense.

From the Roman point of view, Hannibal's army did "appear" from out of the Alps. It's unfortunate if a city is the only way to do it..

As König Markus found, it takes him a long time to get to Italy. If players are on schedule this bit of history would be missed :eek:
 
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